Alfie Evans - FMOTL jump on bandwagon

[Wozzle]

For those without a background knowledge a good summary is here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-me ... e-43841547

Today I noticed FMOTL narratives appearing on some of the Facebook groups supporting him, does anyone recognise the information, or those posting it? To jump on this case is sick, and to be offering more false hope is not what the family need right now.

John Molloy: Alfie Evans Mum Kate James Has Power To Remove Alfie From Alder Hey

Suppose all the court cases to save Alfie are being taken down the wrong processes and I know the magic words and the type of case that should be heard? Now I will published the information to the whole city and Alfie's parents. It holds legal ground and a case will see all attempts to turn off Afie's machine stopped, Alfie will be returned to his mother. It would also see the last people to treat him before he took ill to be held accountable. Supposing I know that information and it will be made public today, then what? - "When the walls come down" They have got until Alfie turns two years old to get this in place he was born in May 2016.

Kate James has the power to end this now as she is Alfie's creator, he is her property, she needs to present herself in a small claims court as a human being taking the cases away from the commercial courts using common law. Kate James needs informing instantly, even Tom Evans doing a lot of the public work must change this needs to be done by Kate.

She can then sue the last nurses and doctors to administer treatment to Alfie before he took seriously ill. This has to be done before Alfie turns two years of age he is currently 23 months old. The legal process they are going down is not correct and not very well informed. A simple case in the small claims court will overrule all authority anyone thinks they have over the parents and see Alfie allowed to leave Alder Hey hospital. It starts with a document that not a lot of us are aware of. Our Certificate of Live Birth, not our a Birth Certificate, these are two different documents and the Live Birth Cert holds the key to Alfie's parents being granted their wish to remove the toddler from the clutches of Alder Hey.

MORE TO FOLLOW PLEASE CHECK FOR UPDATED ARTICLE WITH ALL INFORMATION REGARDING HOW TO REMOVE ALFIE FROM ALDER HEY

#AlfieEvans

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[Siegfried Shrink]

As well as being complete nonsense that is pretty nasty.

[notorial dissent]

As well as being complete nonsense that is pretty nasty.

That is just particularly vile, nasty, and offensive.

[Hercule Parrot]

As well as being complete nonsense that is pretty nasty.

That is just particularly vile, nasty, and offensive.

I share your contempt for 'John Molloy' and his self-aggrandizing nonsense. Obviously his advice is worthless as a child is not owned property under any circumstances, and in any event an application as he purports would be dismissed as a collateral attack upon the outcome at the Supreme Court.

I am myself also philosophically opposed to prolonged artificial life support, once all hope of recovery has passed (confirmed by every test and second opinion available). I would not want it for my child, or myself. I was appalled by the Terri Schiavo case in USA, and the similar cases we've seen in UK. It is especially reprehensible that religious fanatics attach themselves to these campaigns, and denigrate medical staff as monsters.

But.... I also wonder whether we do the right thing by preventing parents from pursuing radical or experimental treatments in other countries. If an accredited modern hospital or clinic is prepared to attempt treatment, even if the odds seem utterly overwhelming, then I'm not sure it is right for the courts to prohibit this. Wandering off-topic somewhat, so I'll stop there.

[noblepa]

As well as being complete nonsense that is pretty nasty.

That is just particularly vile, nasty, and offensive.

I share your contempt for 'John Molloy' and his self-aggrandizing nonsense. Obviously his advice is worthless as a child is not owned property under any circumstances, and in any event an application as he purports would be dismissed as a collateral attack upon the outcome at the Supreme Court.

I am myself also philosophically opposed to prolonged artificial life support, once all hope of recovery has passed (confirmed by every test and second opinion available). I would not want it for my child, or myself. I was appalled by the Terri Schiavo case in USA, and the similar cases we've seen in UK. It is especially reprehensible that religious fanatics attach themselves to these campaigns, and denigrate medical staff as monsters.

But.... I also wonder whether we do the right thing by preventing parents from pursuing radical or experimental treatments in other countries. If an accredited modern hospital or clinic is prepared to attempt treatment, even if the odds seem utterly overwhelming, then I'm not sure it is right for the courts to prohibit this. Wandering off-topic somewhat, so I'll stop there.

I agree with everything you've said, on both sides of the question.

It should be noted that, after Terry Shiavo died, an autopsy revealed that her brain was extensively damaged and half the weight it should have been for a woman of her age and body size.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Sch ... and_burial

So, at least in her case, the doctor's were right.

[JimUk1]

Unfortunately it’s not just freemen that have jumped on the bandwagon, conspiracy theorists have also jumped on and are promoting the usual ‘state euthanasia’ BS.

My partner did explain this to me and it’s very tragic but the parents need to accept the doctors detemrination.

It’s not legal euthanasia either, as much as I could decipher from her medical jargon, the poor child will be eased to sleep with avialbe drugs and not injected as they all believe.

It really needs sorting outas doctors and nurses are being threatened on a daily basis by idiots like the CT and Freemen, and the parents haven’t helped by openly embracing these kinds of people.

Tragic.

[Normal Wisdom]

Sadly in his desperation the poor father of the child has fully embraced "common law" madness as evidenced by the two posts made on the supporters FB page. Regretably there have been other posts (not by the father) suggesting storming the hospital and extracting the child at the point of a gun. This could get very ugly.

Thomas Evans
Admin · 9 hrs

We have today petitioned Her Majesty the Queen about Alfie’s situation, and will do as we promised. We will do whatever it takes to defend Alfie’s life; and we will do that within the law. We must not and will not disrupt the normal work of the Hospital. We will clear the way for the traffic to and from Alder Hey. Its staff shall continue to go about their normal business, and unless they attempt to harm Alfie, they have nothing to fear.

The High Court has ordered that the identities of people involved in Alfie’s treatment and his death must not be published. We will respect that.

But if my son dies now, I will instruct lawyers to start private prosecution of every single person who helps to make that happen.

Remember it is not good enough, in law or in conscience, to say that you simply followed orders.

There is a world of difference between giving up hopeless efforts to save life and taking active steps to bring about death.

You say that to withdraw life support from a sick child is a humane medical act – I say it is murder.

You say that using force to prevent me from trying to save his life is no more than upholding the law – I say it is murder.

You say you are acting in the best interests of the child. Perhaps King Herod used that phrase, too.

I will not allow you to kill my son just because a bunch of smug lawyers in London has concluded this would be good for him.

If you make my son die tomorrow, you will face justice from a jury of your twelve countrymen in this word, and a terrible judgement of God in the world to come.

Thomas Evans

Alder Hey Hospital, Liverpool

22 April 2018

https://www.facebook.com/groups/alfiesarmy/

Thomas Evans
Admin · 8 hrs

Given the failings in the judicial and statutory systems, I have now turned to the Common Law Court to protect my family.

I have recorded my birth and Alfie’s birth with the Common Law Court and have obtained our Birth Certificates. These certificates confirm our standing under common law and protect our inherent birth rights.

In addition to recording our births with the Common Law Court, I have also obtained the ownership of our legal fictions through the Common Law Court and have the certificates to prove it.

The judicial system in this country has no authority over someone standing under common law jurisdiction, which means that when they issued an order to switch off Alfie’s machine, they were dealing with the legal fiction and not the living child.

As I have now obtained ownership of the legal fiction for Alfie, I can confirm that the fiction is not attached to him. This means that the court orders are not applicable to him and that they have no authority to prevent me from removing him.

If you wish to stand with us, please show your support by recording your own birth with the Common Law Court, there is no charge for doing so and it can be done by visiting the website

CommonLawCourt.com

If a statutory court were to interfere, fail to recognise, or abide by a Common Law Court process, this would be a denial of Common Law Rights and a Common Law crime against the people.

[TheNewSaint]

That's awful. Talk about making a bad situation worse.

[AndyPandy]

That's awful. Talk about making a bad situation worse.

Couldn't agree more, I feel quite ill reading the above from Alfie's father, what was yesterday harmless nonsense / a mild scam, has today taken on a much darker tone.

My heart goes out to him.

[JimUk1]

They have indeed tried to storm the hospital-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-me ... e-43867132

Shocking considering is a children’s hospital, and given what Norman has presented, the sympathy I had for the parents is quickly evaporating.

The hospital also relies on donations to provide toys ect for the sick children.

I hope these “protestors” are happy! As I can see this negative publicity resulting in a reduction in donations, and it isn’t the fault of the staff.

Shocking and utterly appalling.

[Wakeman52]

I feel for the parents with children in the hospital, having to run the gauntlet of protestors, police and the media. As a father of 2, I had considerable sympathy for the little lad's parents, but I can't condone the hysteria they've created and the threats their actions and statements to the press have engendered to the staff and building.

Surely, this kind of situation is, however sad, best left to the medical, rather than the legal, profession.

[longdog]

Surely, this kind of situation is, however sad, best left to the medical, rather than the legal, profession.

I think that's pretty much the case and has been the case for a long while. As I understand it it goes like this...

1) Doctors come to the conclusion that further treatment is futile and consider withdrawing life support.
2) The family / next of kin are consulted and if they agree the patient is eased as peacefully as possible from this life to the next.

or)

1) Doctors come to the conclusion that further treatment is futile and consider withdrawing life support.
2) The family / next of kin are consulted and refuse consent.
3) Other independent experts are consulted and a conference is held.
4) The family are again consulted. If they refuse again then...
5) The case is taken to court and both sides' evidence is weighed. A decision is made giving the doctors effective legal immunity to prosecution for the very serious matter of ending a human life.
6) Appeals run their course.
7) Patient is eased as peacefully as possible from this life to the next.

In the end the decision is almost always a medical one and I don't recall a case where a sound medical decision has ever been over ruled by the courts. The legal aspect is partly to cover the doctors' arses and I suppose partly a way for the family to comfort themselves that they fought to the end for their loved on. I don't think the way these medico-legal cases play out is particularly great but I'd be hard pushed to think of a better alternative.

[JimUk1]

Unfortunately I can see the heartbreaking events of this evening not slipping quietly into the night-

I feel we’ve got another upcoming spate of freemanism in the making here.

The old “Britain had euthanised Alfie” is spreading rapidly around the web largely unchallenged and it seems his parents are going to end up ruined challenging all those court decisions; you can only hope someone is really looking after them-

I still don’t see how they think he’s an Italian citizen or what difference that will make to wildly publised court orders going back years-

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/s ... s-12414851

Tragic! and shame on the bandwagon jumpers!

[AnOwlCalledSage]

In the end the decision is almost always a medical one and I don't recall a case where a sound medical decision has ever been over ruled by the courts.

I recall one: Ashya King.

Medical staff refused to sanction Ashya receiving proton treatment on the NHS. The family removed their child from hospital and were eventually arrested in Spain. A High Court judge overruled the medical decision and allowed the family to travel to Prague. Ashya has fully recovered. The medical profession produced a report two years later reiterating that they were right to make their original decision.

This is by necessity a simplified version. I'm aware that the full story is more complicated and nuanced, and it is not my intention to introduce a debate, but to show that the High Court does not side with doctors in every case.

[Wozzle]

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/co ... 16486.html

I recall one: Ashya King.

Medical staff refused to sanction Ashya receiving proton treatment on the NHS. The family removed their child from hospital and were eventually arrested in Spain. A High Court judge overruled the medical decision and allowed the family to travel to Prague. Ashya has fully recovered. The medical profession produced a report two years later reiterating that they were right to make their original decision.

This is by necessity a simplified version. I'm aware that the full story is more complicated and nuanced, and it is not my intention to introduce a debate, but to show that the High Court does not side with doctors in every case.

The NHS said it was a clinical decision to refer to standard radiotherapy, and at the time did refer people to get the proton therapy abroad (and pay for it and the expenses involved) when it was clinically the best option. The arrest warrant occurred after the parents took the child from hospital (without notice or prior arrangement) and fled, not to the clinic for treatment but to their holiday home in Spain.It was unclear at first what their intentions were, especially due to the cult (see link above) they were members of. As the two treatments would have the same side effects and likely outcomes there was no reason not to allow the treatment abroad, so the court allowed it. The child has recovered, after receiving his brain operation in England on the NHS - the medical evidence shows the treatment offered at first in the UK would have been as effective as the proton beam treatment, as well as the side effects being the same. So it wasn't an issue over the treatment offered/requested (other than it wasn't available as it is not anymore effective than standard treatment) - more so the parents took the child without notice and without their intentions being known.

[AnOwlCalledSage]

As I said, my intention was not to start a debate, merely to point out that UK law is not the rubber stamping operation it is made out to be by both sides and is quite rightly based on reviewing the aspects of an individual case which, whilst it more often than not does, may not necessarily concur with medical opinion.

I originally wrote a longer post which extended into areas well beyond the FMOTL aspect. I decided it wasn't appropriate for this forum. Other opinions may be available.

[letissier14]

Numerous paedophile hunting groups (the community) are on their way there now to support and help. And they are all wearing their merchandised hoodies so they can be recognised lol

[Siegfried Shrink]

What have paedophiles got to do with it?

Latest news, father takes private prosecution for conspiracy to murder against three doctors. THe CPS will shut that down.
Father makes another court application. How can he afford it?

[AndyPandy]

What have paedophiles got to do with it?

Latest news, father takes private prosecution for conspiracy to murder against three doctors. THe CPS will shut that down.
Father makes another court application. How can he afford it?

Being paid for by a Christian Legal Centre

[JimUk1]

What have paedophiles got to do with it?

Latest news, father takes private prosecution for conspiracy to murder against three doctors. THe CPS will shut that down.
Father makes another court application. How can he afford it?

Being paid for by a Christian Legal Centre

Could the CLC be declared a vexatious business?

Some of the stuff theyre advising the poor farther do, it’s purely ashtonishing!