Controlling VexLit/SovCits

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Controlling VexLit/SovCits

Post by MRN »

exiledscouser wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:48 pm I’d like to believe that you are right, that some judge will finally put the kibosh on the Equity Trusts and the Prince Bishops. But EWE just tweaks their tails, drags some other poor sap into hopeless court appearances and the court simply watches on. It costs a fortune to run a court for a day, a day when they could be doing something far more constructive. Judges, counsel, clerks, heating, lighting, subsidised canteen - it all adds up.
(I've trawled the archives pretty extensively and I don't think I've seen this discussed.)

What would that look like? It seems to me that, and this complicates things, most of the slack that EWE and company rely on are necessary safeguards we wouldn't want entirely gone. It's abuse, not use, of them that we want to stop.

So, those of you who know the UK system far better than I do, assuming the judicial/political will for the moment, which I know is a BIG assumption, what would have to change and what's the best way to change it? Court proceedures that a given judge could simply decide to do differently tomorrow? Criteria for suspending sentences, which I assume would be a broader change requiring many more people to be on board? Legislative change such as "paper terrorism" laws?

I'm always hesitant to say "let's narrow options for appeal", because sometimes the courts get it really really wrong. And yet in this kind of vexlit case it's in everyone's best interests, including the vexatious litigant, that things be cut off sharp as soon as it becomes obvious what's going on.

So. If you ran the zoo, what would you do?
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

Post by AnOwlCalledSage »

I've alluded to it in the EWE thread, but today's judgement is the first time I have seen all the "usual suspects" linked together in a single case.

It would be nice if there was a UK equivalent of Mead vs Meads precedence set but before we get there that entails all the frustration of dumb appeals being allowed to play out. I personally think that we are near that point, but I understand the cynicism.
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

Post by MRN »

AnOwlCalledSage wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:15 pm I've alluded to it in the EWE thread, but today's judgement is the first time I have seen all the "usual suspects" linked together in a single case.

It would be nice if there was a UK equivalent of Mead vs Meads precedence set but before we get there that entails all the frustration of dumb appeals being allowed to play out. I personally think that we are near that point, but I understand the cynicism.
Do you think this may end up being that case/those cases?

I'm honestly not especially cynical about it; I think you're right. I am mostly just genuinely curious about the shape of it in the UK. Precedent rather than legislative, you reckon?

It's going to be mildly funny if EWE gets his "proof" after all, in the form of a binding precedent that says "Just Don't, People."
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

Post by HardyW »

I ought to wait until an actual member who knows about English law processes replies, but here goes.

Is this really a big problem in this country? And if so is it mostly found in criminal cases, or civil cases as defendants, or civil cases as instigators like this one?

Although we are amused by a lot of UK sovcit types on Quatloos, most of them seem to have their day in court, lose, and disappear from view. (Are there any updates on Miss Patel and her thackstones?) Or they don't ever reach court, simply discuss their problem on Facebook, dispute their debt or their mortgage, or their liability for council tax or parking fines, get taken to court and we never hear what the outcome is. But we can guess.

The Equity Lawyer might be an exception, partly because he is one of the remnants of the Hampstead lot and that was a very worrying episode that caused real damage to real people's lives. You could describe that as some form of terrorism, whether paper is the right description I'm not sure.

O'Bernicia was amusing, claiming he could overturn everyone's mortgage without overturning their property ownership. but did he really consume any serious amount of court resources? and if there is any real issue concerning robo signatures maybe it should be heard in court. Now he's become just another mask hater.

Reading the judgement above, the court says that Ellis was reminded of the availability of legal aid. That presumably is because he was the defendant ("Respondent"). I don't imagine he would get legal aid as a litigant without a genuine case with real chance of success.

So my suspicion is that there is not a great problem of this sort needing fixing: the main thing perhaps is for better attention to taking swift action when a court order is breached, this seems to be patchy and the orders are always there for a good reason (non contact orders following domestic violence as another example.)

Waiting to be corrected by those with real knowledge ...
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

Post by AnOwlCalledSage »

HardyW wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:34 pm Reading the judgement above, the court says that Ellis was reminded of the availability of legal aid. That presumably is because he was the defendant ("Respondent"). I don't imagine he would get legal aid as a litigant without a genuine case with real chance of success.
I'm not a legal person, but I've had a little experience of legal aid on the, ahem, business end. :whistle: Access to legal aid has been slashed over the last decade. I was denied twice, despite having no job, no savings and no assets. Inconveniently it was only approved AFTER the plea hearing. :P

EWE will not have been eligible for his civil suits or his "criminal" filing shenanigans. However, he would probably have been eligible for waiving of the RCJ filing fees and, as this case mentioned, he has also been filing by proxy using people who would be eligible for filing fee waiving anyway.
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

Post by MRN »

HardyW wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:34 pm I ought to wait until an actual member who knows about English law processes replies, but here goes.

Is this really a big problem in this country? And if so is it mostly found in criminal cases, or civil cases as defendants, or civil cases as instigators like this one?
That is an excellent question and I don't know offhand how to answer it. At least, a keyword search on BAILII might get us some distance, but won't capture anything that doesn't go to some kind of hearing and decision.

I suppose a carefully-constructed FOIA request might get us some numbers, but I don't know what sort of data they capture about this sort of stuff, so it's hard to know how to frame the question.
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

Post by MRN »

MRN wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:24 pm
HardyW wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:34 pm I ought to wait until an actual member who knows about English law processes replies, but here goes.

Is this really a big problem in this country? And if so is it mostly found in criminal cases, or civil cases as defendants, or civil cases as instigators like this one?
That is an excellent question and I don't know offhand how to answer it. At least, a keyword search on BAILII might get us some distance, but won't capture anything that doesn't go to some kind of hearing and decision.

I suppose a carefully-constructed FOIA request might get us some numbers, but I don't know what sort of data they capture about this sort of stuff, so it's hard to know how to frame the question.
Huh. I was not previously aware of the Office of the Pubs Code Adjudicator :-)
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

Post by HardyW »

MRN wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:01 pm Huh. I was not previously aware of the Office of the Pubs Code Adjudicator :-)
Yes I don't imagine Meads v Meads has been cited in an English court case, so that particular acronym may not yet be found on BAILII.
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

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HardyW wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:36 pm
MRN wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:01 pm Huh. I was not previously aware of the Office of the Pubs Code Adjudicator :-)
Yes I don't imagine Meads v Meads has been cited in an English court case, so that particular acronym may not yet be found on BAILII.
There are actually a fair number, all citing Meads. Plus several involving the Office of the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration & Health Services Commissioners. And the pub one.

I may become permanently distracted by the results from Lawful and Rebellion, which has a few we know about, one intriguing edge case:
https://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKUT/AAC/2018/107.pdf

The Constitution of the Irish Free State Act 1922,
https://www.bailii.org/ie/legis/num_act/1922/0001.html

and this gem:

https://www.bailii.org/uk/legis/num_act ... 17738.html
Which provides that "noe person going wth the Kinge to the Warres shall be attaynt of treason", " [p]rovided alwey that no persone ne persones shall take any benefite or avauntage by this acte which shall hereafter declyne from his or their seid alliegeaunce", which certainly seems reasonable.
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

Post by DNetolitzky »

Meads v Meads was cited in CH v SSWP (JSA) (No.2) [2018] UKUT 320 (AAC):

https://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKUT/AAC/2018/320.pdf

That is the only instance I am aware of where Meads was cited in English Courts. The decision has also been cited at least once in Scotland, four times in Northern Ireland, four times in the Republic of Ireland, and once by the Jersey Court of Appeal.

Australia is the non-Canadian jurisdiction that most often refers to and relies on Meads v Meads. It is has been cited at least 19 times, ten times by appellate courts in the nation.
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

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DNetolitzky wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:17 pm Meads v Meads was cited in CH v SSWP (JSA) (No.2) [2018] UKUT 320 (AAC):

https://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKUT/AAC/2018/320.pdf

That is the only instance I am aware of where Meads was cited in English Courts. The decision has also been cited at least once in Scotland, four times in Northern Ireland, four times in the Republic of Ireland, and once by the Jersey Court of Appeal.
Yeah, I did "all databases". Any guesses on whether it's OPCA strategies or just Meads vs Meads that are more popular in Ireland and Northern Ireland?
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

Post by DNetolitzky »

It's tough to gauge volumes when it comes to pseudolaw activity.

Using a court decision based "head count" mechanism isn't at all reliable to measure litigation volume. In many courts many, if not most, court decisions never are reported. I've done some back of the napkin estimates for the Alberta Court of Queen's Bench and only about 1% of court steps that resulted in a civil court order have written reasons one would find on a database like CanLII.

My understanding is that for the UK trial level reported decisions are very rare.

Then there is a second variable - does a particular court tend to record decisions that reject futile or abusive litigation. Some don't, some do. In the US some courts have all their records available and searchable by tools like PACER. Others, like the Canadian Federal Courts, have detailed written orders that give reasons for every decision, but those are not published in a readily searchable form. The Alberta Court of Queen's Bench has a policy of writing about problematic litigants, so if you search for OPCA by jurisdiction, you will find Alberta over-represented.

Then there's another variable - can you locate this kind of litigation when it is reported? Post-Meads I have located around 600 reported Canadian court decisions that involve pseudolaw in one sense or another. Only about 1/3 cite Meads. This means there are probably relevant decisions missing from any survey.

Combine all those factors, and if someone says they know the volume of pseudolaw activity in a jurisdiction, they're guessing.

My guess would be that there is much more pseudolaw litigation going on in England than in the rest of the UK, and the Republic of Ireland. It wasn't always that way. Shortly after the property bubble in Ireland there was a lot of activity in that country, going so far as a Freeman political party emerged. As far as I can tell, pseudolaw in the Republic of Ireland is now all but dead.

But that's simply a guess. If someone has strong data, they have not published it.
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

Post by exiledscouser »

MRN wrote:What would that look like?
I don’t have the answer I’m afraid. Vexatious litigants are mercifully few in the UK. You only have to look here for the list and some of them were made VI decades ago. I count less than 200 and a significant minority of them will be dead now - one guy is still on from 1956! EWE is not of that status yet. I’m no clinical psychologist but even I can see that there is a man who is seriously delusional and who needs professional help.

His buddy Neelu isn’t VI either. Looking at the list there are a number of individuals who were also reported to be mentally ill. Maybe it’s a qualification, who knows?

Where I get off with Ellis and his supporters is that the court simply does not know what to do with him. He looks like a lawyer, he sounds like one and knows what forms to fill in. When m’learned friends encounter him they see a malfunctioning one of their own and do everything to try and assist. Deny him justice to pursue hopeless and unfounded actions on behalf of a non existent Royal Commission? No judge (outside of criminal courts) would be so bold as to squish his actions, not at least until they have run their course. And run they most certainly do.

Frankly I’m amazed that he’s still in the game on this one. Sage Owl thinks EWE’s on his last legs, that his end is neigh. So he should be.

Alas, however he’s a non-stick former solicitor who files and files and files complete garbage whilst making ludicrous appeals which is surely all the evidence needed that he’s completely crackers. The court however is like a pinball machine in “tilt” or a computer attempting to divide by zero because people like EWE almost never come before it. And when they do, they allow postponement and delay knowing some other bewigged sucker further down the line will accept the hospital pass. Things like the recusal of the last judge only fuel Eddie’s sense of winning.

No, it’s the waste of public resources that takes place every time Eddie is in court which grinds my gears. I just wish the court would recognise that they are dealing with, not necessarily a vexatious but wholly delusional, most likely mentally ill litigant and shut him down.
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

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exiledscouser wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:24 pm
MRN wrote:What would that look like?
I don’t have the answer I’m afraid. Vexatious litigants are mercifully few in the UK.
If that's true a legislative remedy aimed specifically at SovCits might do more harm than good, if (that's a biggish if) it ends up catching LIPs with real issues but less-than-conventional understandings of the law and court proceedings.

...
No, it’s the waste of public resources that takes place every time Eddie is in court which grinds my gears. I just wish the court would recognise that they are dealing with, not necessarily a vexatious but wholly delusional, most likely mentally ill litigant and shut him down.
That's sort of what I'm noodling around. If EWE is sui generis or nearly so, that doesn't mean the courts shouldn't deal with him, but it does make an individual decision that affects only him rather than a precedent-setting or legislative solution make more sense.

If, OTOH, LIP VexLits who buy into various OPCA/SovCit/Lawful Rebellion theories are eating up huge amounts of court time and will keep doing so, then Quatloosians are honestly almost certainly one of the groups of people best equipped to suggest next steps.
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

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Just my tuppence or thruppence worth, and not that I am excusing either of them, but while they are both vexatious, O'Waaah is at least only litigating the same very very long dead horse over and over and over again on his own behalf, occasionally finding a bare nugget of reality in all of it, his one pyrrhic victory in fact, EWE on the other hand is a genuine resource waster and general problem, as none of what he does has any basis in reality and does no good for anyone or anything other than clog up the courts and waste judicial resources, and probably generally hurts the people he is "helping" so of the two he is more deserving of the accolade. That all being said, I think O'Waaah is about due for similar treatment as there comes a time when it just needs to be ended. O'Waaah doesn't seem to have a life other than refighting the same long irretrievably lost battle and attempting to scam the serious dim and bewildered who buy, although not apparently seriously on the cash side, in to his fantasy real estate an d mortgage law. EWE doesn't seem to have a life other than his fantasy world of fraud and fraud remedy and mucking about with the courts. Which in a way is even sadder than O'Waaah's sorry existence.
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

Post by HardyW »

I go back to my first point : of the many UK idiots discussed on Quatloos, most get to court as defendants. Both Crawford and Rekha Patel, if I remember correctly, had possession cases against them and later criminal charges of something like criminal damage. To which they claimed they were innocent because the property damaged was their own.

So in general, people are entitled to choose their defence and the judge or magistrates are capable of keeping excesses in check.

What we don't see is the US/Canada style income tax refusers. There are plenty of Council tax refusers, but as there is no real legal defence, My council funds illegal wars so I'm not paying, Did you live at 43 Gladstone Street between those dates? yes. So you're liable. Application granted, Order made, Case closed.
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

Post by mufc1959 »

For a claim against a bank, insurance company, etc. FOTL don't need to go to court - they can go to the Financial Ombudsman Service instead, free of charge to them, but costing the business complained about a £650 case fee for each case (the first 25 are free).

I'm in the legal dept of a bank and we work closely with the complaints department. We see a lot of frequent flyers, not all of them FOTL, but all of them dogged in their belief that they are in the right and, even in the face of a final decision on their case from the FOS, intent on trying to raise the same issues time and time again.

All the old Ombudsman schemes - Banking, Insurance, Building Societies, Personal Investments Authority - used to have a get out allowing them to dismiss 'frivolous and vexatious' complaints. When these organisations merged into FOS in 2001 this was incorporated into the rules. But the rules changed about 5 years ago, removing this option. The rules do say that the FOS won't look at the same case twice, but the savvy complainant can tweak the wording of their complaint so it seems to the FOS to be a new issue. The operational changes at FOS away from experienced casehandlers to non-specialist contract staff (more of a call centre model) has made it more difficult for us to argue that no, this is the same thing you've already looked at.

A fair number of "my" FOTL customers have had multiple cases go to the FOS, around DDI claims, credit card, loan and mortgage invalidity, disputing debt recovery, arguments about securitisation, all the usual FOTL bollocks. Generally, once they're identified as FOTL cases at the FOS, they're directed towards one particular ombudsman who gives them very short shrift. I'm guessing it's the same at all the major banks, and also at other ombudsman services, the Info Commissioners, etc - probably any organisation that offers a free dispute-resolution service.
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

Post by SpearGrass »

The number of people actually declared vexatious and similar can be seen here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/civil-restraint-orders--2 and https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vexatious-litigants It doesn’t cover people under a basic civil restraint order which only relate to one set of proceedings – to stop continuous interlocutory applications which Mr Ebert, for example, was so devoted to.

There’s been a rise in the number of civil restraint orders since judges were instructed to make a formal declaration that an application was utterly without merit. Once that’s been done a few times, a restraint order is fairly inevitable. The latest addition to the list, Graham Quintana, has brought the same application four or five times in the last 12 months or so, and so his fate was fairly inevitable. Quintana is a fairly typical type – he’s trying to appeal one set of court proceedings by bringing another, rather than by making use of the appeal procedure which Parliament actually provided.
How casually making an ECRO can appear can be seen in the case of Banfield v Harrow LBC. The Banfields were a couple whose main pursuits seem to have been a) not paying for stuff and b) suing people. They helpfully applied for judicial review of a council tax liability order on every conceivable ground, meaning that there is now a reported case on them all, and at the end of it, almost by the way, you might say, Haddon-Cave J listed all the various actions they’d brought, said “all good things come to an end”, and made an extended civil restraint order.

The growing ease among judges in making CROs is one thing forcing people into other routes. FOIAs and complaints are popular – you just have to look at What Do They Know? to see the number of people who try to get HMCTS, CPS, Cabinet Office etc to confirm that Magna Carta is the only true law, the High Court is a business, the Crown Court is a ship etc etc,. Replies are getting increasingly brusque, but they all have to be answered; there is no such thing as a vexatious FOIant.
Also vexatious criminal prosecutions seem to be on the rise – Waugh, Berry and so on, though until there is a proper way of measuring them (on its way), it’s hard to tell. There’s no such things as a vexatious prosecutor, so each time they apply, a judge or justices’ legal adviser has to consider the application, though since the South Tyneside case, at least the fact that someone has made the same application somewhere else is definitely a bar to proceeding. However I think the main reason they’re on the rise is that there’s no fee. The primary disadvantage is that most of them are refused by the judge or justices’ legal adviser right at the outset (again, Waugh and Berry) and the only way from there is to apply for a judicial review which is going to get the same reaction from the judge as it got at first instance. Very few of these will be known outside the back office of a court - apart from court staff and two judges, we only know about Waugh's because he told the internet about it.

As someone who advises courts on pseudo-law, I can say that pseudo-law is absolutely endemic, and has been for about a decade, but once it’s spotted, it's simple to deal with, which does not mean that it's always easy. Fans of the PLD Facebook page will have seen a standard form of words which HMCTS is sending out to everyone who sends in a Magna Carta notice. It tells the sender that their notice has been received and will have no effect, and that’s that.

However most attempted uses of pseudo-law in courts and tribunals won’t get into Bailii. They’re strangled at birth - like Waugh’s prosecution - don’t reveal a cause of action, or are put forward as defences which don’t work. Local newspapers sometimes pick up cases, but court reporters are rare nowadays. Probably the most likely sources on line are Facebook and Quatloos.

What else, oh yes, EWE is entitled to legal aid as the outcome of the hearing could be imprisonment and he’s indigent. He’s just refused to apply.

The whole vexatious litigant thing is a purely common law thing (the real common law, I mean). Civil legal systems don’t have them. It’s not because they don’t have people like that – in the 19th century Krafft-Ebing identified “querulant paranoia” in Germany, and de Clerambault in France.
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

Post by AnOwlCalledSage »

SpearGrass wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:43 pm there is no such thing as a vexatious FOIant.
That's stretching it. I've sanctioned making several individuals vexatious in terms of FOI :whistle:

It's true that you have to consider each case on it's merit, as a previous vexatious complaint doesn't mean that you get a blanket ban, but multiple vexatious complaints can mean that you go on the naughty list and therefore a reply is not required other than for the blandest of queries :wink:
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Re: Controlling VexLit/SovCits

Post by CrankyBoomer »

Thanks so much for your recent informative posts, Speargrass. I knew nothing of the vexatious litigant from back in Victorian times who ended his days in the workhouse. I didn't realise that what are nowadays called conspiracy theories had been around for as long as they have*. I rather enjoy a conspiracy debunking podcast called 'The Paranoid Strain' (American) which looks into the history of some of the strange ideas that abound. Of course people going stir-crazy because of the restrictions of Covid-19 have helped the promulgation of strange ideas. It was relatively recently that I learned about Samuel Rowbotham the historical flat earther. I should remember that this is primarily a site for debunking scams and mustn't go off track too much. Vexatious litigants must waste a lot of public money though (I'm probably not the first to say that but I haven't been through all the previous posts on this site).

* The idea that some royal ladies fake their pregnancies isn't new of course (the unfortunate Duchess of Sussex has been accused of that) - back in the day it was claimed by some that James II's (of England) son by his second wife, Mary of Modena, had been smuggled into the birthing room in a warming pan. The powers that be in England just didn't want a Catholic heir to the thrones of course.