Practical Lawful Dissent - information assistance request

[DNetolitzky]

Hi folks,

I thought I would avoid breaking up the various PLD discussions on Quatloos by posting a new message thread. I am currently drafting a social sciences piece on the Practical Lawful Dissent / Magna Carta Lawful Rebels phenomenon. It's partially intended as an overview to record this curious movement, but also to illustrate the cult-like patterns of thinking, group control, and leadership found in many pseudolaw movements.

Or, I should more correctly say, arguing my perspective that there are strong parallels between "religious" cult and "legal" cult systems, leaderships, and ideas.

Whatever else, Jacquie Phoenix is currently doing a fine job of highlighting that parallel!

In any case, the reason I am writing is I'm trying to dig up some additional specific information. Knowing and respecting the Quatloos hive mind, I am hoping you can fill in a few specific points:

1. Do we know David Robinson's date of birth, or how old he was when he died in November, 2021?
2. Phoenix announced David Robinson's death on November 10, 2021 ( Do we know Robinson's actual date of death?
3. Do we know anything about David Robinson's profession, or work history? Does he have a known criminal record?
4. I have read comments that Phoenix is an AISH recipient. What is the source for that information?
5. Do we know anything else about Phoenix's personal history? I am pretty sure I've read Phoenix complain about her losing custody of children, but searching around I have not found and confirmed that data.
6. I'm currently using this image of Phoenix (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... idence+013) (top item) to illustrate her modern staff-wielding evil cowboy wizard appearance mode. Does anyone have suggestions for an even goofier looking illustration of Phoenix as Magna Carta magic-user?

Oh yes, and I'm crediting Quatloos as "a morgue of pseudolaw", a critically valuable social contribution.

Thanks very much in advance, and please feel free to send me private messages if you prefer that to answering this post.

Donald

[eric]

Let me see.... most of the personal info supplied about our heroine was courtesy of myself and was courtesy of old facebook posts from her along with local knowledge. Assuming she hasn't purged these posts they are probably recoverable, I will have to check back through old bookmarks. Probably a goofier picture of her would be her imbibing cheap plonk, but that wouldn't bring out the myth/religion part of her movement which is drifting towards cult like status. I am not sure if it would be appropriate to contact the people in Alberta who acted as witnesses for some of her documents - they seem to be nice enough folks so I would rather keep that information private. I will see what I can dig up for you to answer your other questions while I am putting my garden to bed over the next few days.

[eric]

Here ya go - The David's death morning Nov 10, 2020, funeral Dec7 (seems rather late to me)
https://www.gofundme.com/f/5wdx2e-david ... p2LoMRgBXw
Personal details -I'm not sure how much information you want to know, Drumheller girl, family lived in Nacmine, moved to Lethbridge before HS grad, even more gory details which aren't really important to the narrative.
The AISH part is from facebook of the PLD group, sometime on or before Aug 2020, came up in a do no harm post as to why she was accepting AISH. I will check tomorrow.

[AnOwlCalledSage]

I guess a lot depends on how wide you want to cast the net. There have been several splinters of Magna Carta Madness (the White Pendragons come to mind) and there is tremendous overlap in the UK.

Whether it's Neelu's Swissindo stupidity, Robert "I'm paying for nuffink" White, Rab C Sproul in Scottishland or the whole of the Common Law Court nonsense, they all by and large share the same idiots.

[longdog]

I'm not sure if it's still visible on Facebook but you might want to see if you can find the whole Ollie Pinnock fiasco from a few years back if you haven't already.

That was a fine example of applying religious thinking to the law on the part of Dismal Dave and the other loons. He ended up in jail for non-payment of Council Tax not because his PLD arguments were worthless nonsense but because he didn't pray hard enough use the remedy properly. It was, in essence, a lack of faith that led to his downfall rather than the power of the "remedy" or the more obvious lack of common sense.

I'm no sociologist but I'm often struck by how the quasi-religious aspects of these cults, and that's what they are, come to the fore when the promises and predictions fail to live up to expectations. Not having a religious bone in my body I can't get my head around why people become more religious when their world view fails not less religious. Much like how so many people in the highly secular UK suddenly remember they are Christians when granny goes to be wiv da angles.

[exiledscouser]

When JF first latched on to Dismal Dave hers was an almost unrequited love affair from afar. She started her own Canadian brand of PLD. In the meantime she got her arse handed to her by the courts over there in this and in the follow up.

Between this pair of judgements Dismal Dave shook a seven, I’m not sure whether she was here in the UK already or after this date. She saw an opportunity to pick up the shamanic stick or should that be schtick and promote DD’s crazy if (until his demise) rather harmless MC delusions. The high point of Dave’s Rebellion was the day-long occupation of Glastonbury Town Hall, a very British failure.

Using social media JF picked up followers from all over the English speaking world and having fired them up as Dave’s heir apparent came over to the UK on something of a roll. There was always something quite edgy in her pieces to camera, not someone I’d ever place any trust in. In the end she went, well, Radio Rental. Before then however the Canadian courts had already summed her up quite accurately, describing her as an already-established guru, someone well grounded in pseudo law. It said;

Gurus are a particularly obnoxious component of the pseudolaw phenomenon. They operate as “Typhoid Marys” who spread the pseudolaw “disease of ideas” into new populations.

So it proved. I suspect once DD passed away she saw a gap in the market and, clothed in DD’s shroud took up his banner but in her own image. Hers was not a peaceful scheme, there were threats of “sorting out” any and all enemies, a-hangin and a-shootin her way to revolution. I think that all this adulation from afar and within UK FB groups this fed into an already unstable mind. Hubris set in.

A new “remedy” namely promoting the occupation of buildings was set up under the banner of “Redress” after which everything would be magically set right, governments would fall, a mass execution of enemies, flowers and honey thereafter, you get the picture.

Well Redress was a hopeless failure because apart from an absence of proper planning and execution, there just wasn’t the support for it that there was in JR’s head. Hubris again. When hubris is punctured the guru will turn inwards on those “unworthy” who did not keep the faith, failed to turn up, even those that did such as the Edinburg brave hearts who “took over” the castle were excommunicated for perceived heresy and booted into the wilderness. Most of the followers were only interested in dodging their debts anyway.

As others have observed once Redress fell away what was revealed was the quasi religious belief system lying just below the surface. Trumpets trump, angels give flight, Armageddon and end-times are coming, you were all not worthy.

JF turned completely on her flock and has slunk off, probably to try again. Many of her previously slavish followers have moved on to other gurus. One comment which caught my eye said simply “I’m out!”.

It is a fascinating study in a human condition to want, to feed a need even, to fall for any old crap. As long as there are conmen and women around to take advantage, offering a brighter tomorrow there will be those willing to buy in and be conned I’m afraid.

[longdog]

When JF first latched on to Dismal Dave hers was an almost unrequited love affair from afar. She started her own Canadian brand of PLD. In the meantime she got her arse handed to her by the courts over there in this and in the follow up.

I'd either not read those two judgements or forgotten about them. To borrow a word from O'Bonkers... Coruscating. I always enjoy a judgement where one party's submission is described as "gibberish". They made excellent decorating tea-break reading and I thank m'learned friend.

It did make me wonder if the reason Ms Feenicks is in the UK is because there's a warrant out for her arrest on contempt charges. That's only wild, evidence free speculation of course but by the rules of Facebook that makes it true.

[aesmith]

I always enjoy a judgement where one party's submission is described as "gibberish".

I call your gibberish and raise with ...

JUSTICE PETER CHARLES ADER: I do not know what you are saying, Mr Ebert. It is gobbledegook ---
DEFENDANT: I read it. I don’t have to say, the Court says.
JUSTICE PETER CHARLES ADER: It sounds like gobbledegook to me.

I also enjoyed Elizabeth Watson's responses being described as "childish scribblings"

[NYGman]

Just curious, would you reference exiledscouser in an academic paper if relying on that information, independently verify, and reference that, or cite this web page. Never had to cite from a web forum in my academic days, just curious as to the process. That and imagining exiledscouser or better yet longdog (no offense eric, to simple) showing up as a source in a paper amuses me.

[longdog]

That and imagining exiledscouser or better yet longdog (no offense eric, to simple) showing up as a source in a paper amuses me.

I was listed in the "...without whose support and encouragement I would never have finished the damn thing" section of a PhD thesis under that name. Does that count?

[eric]

In my experience, when referencing material from web forums, conversations, etc, it's conversation with John Doe on "date" and then hopefully establish John Doe's credibility.

Anyways back to the meat of the matter:

4. I have read comments that Phoenix is an AISH recipient. What is the source for that information?

From the PLD Canada facebook page April 15 2019:

Bradley Earp
Does taking the oath affect CPP or OAP ?
· Share · 2y
Jacquie Phoenix
Bradley Earp no I myself am on AISH.
· Share · 2y
Jacquie Phoenix
Pete Mitchell ya disability, pensions, etc..... Government income checks. They don’t give us much to live on but people are worried that they will lose their income if they go under oath.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/7543384 ... ch/?q=AISH
BTW, AISH is until you reach age 65, as in a permanent disability. In other words, if she was on AISH in 2019 she still would be. The only problem is that she has been out of province, in fact out of country, well past their time limits. I don't know if AISH is aware of her trip but the rule is to inform your worker if you are going to be out of province for more than a month and the reason why. Although they don't expect your disability to go away they are very strict about ensuring you follow their rules, and in fact are very intrusive into your personal life about it.
Ok, and some info on her personal life. https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2 ... ultIndex=1
I have taken a look at the assorted witnesses on the documents and they are uniquely small town Canadian. In fact they mostly appear to be members of the local Legion who were sitting in the local hotel, which is where the Legion meets, and were asked to sign. Nothing to see here, just a slice of boring Canada.
https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2 ... ultIndex=2
This one is actually an escalation. Instead of just getting friends and neighbours we now have Alberta members of PLD to sign documents. They were/are from the Edmonton and Barrhead area and active posters.

[exiledscouser]

I had to look up AISH which I now know to be a form of state benefit within Alberta called Assured Income for the Severely Handicapped. At the risk of being howled down JF seems pretty active to me. She is capable of unaccompanied international travel, has travelled widely within the UK where, in recent events she boldly strode the capital armed only with her trusty non-NHS stick, confronting plod and minor public servants in a hectic few days of furious activity against us seditious treasonous Brits whilst busily managing an insurrection all by herself without any assistance at all from lazy, treacherous and entirely feckless followers now condemned to eternal torment and lamentation. Oh yes.

Of course we don’t know if she qualifies through a physical disability, mental illness or some other cognitive disorder, the three routes through which a claim might be made although I could hazard a guess. Interestingly my in depth research (Wiki, 2 seconds) informs me that;

”There is also a dollar for dollar claw back on any form of additional income above a set amount that an individual or a family unit receiving AISH, might earn or receive”.

Whatever the position she is surely a shining example of what is possible for the severely handicapped in these challenging times.

[DNetolitzky]

Thanks everyone for your help!

I determined David Robinson's birth year - he posted an age while complaining on Facebook about being the target of unconventional energy technologies (www.facebook.com/david.messenger.716/po ... 5115991302). Robinson was 56 when he died.

AnOwlCalledSage: I've incorporated a brief overview of the early appearance of Magna Carta motifs in the UK pseudolaw world. One thing that is very clear (and I've stated that) is that David Robinson's materials are highly derivative of UK and Canadian sources, but mainly UK ones. From what I have located, the closest source for MCLR theory is a group called the Magna Carta Society, who had at least some influence in the 2000 great non-revolt of the New Rebel Barons.

The UK pseudolaw ecosystem seems much more competitive than what we have in Canada, with more branches, movements, and gurus battling over the same clientele. It would be interesting to dissect that further at some point.

longdog: It's an interesting subject, and one where I certainly am not an expert. Lucky for me, I have been working with Stephen Kent of the University of Alberta off and on for the last number of years, and he is one of the world's experts in cultic behaviour, groups, and leaders. Tells great Scientology stories. I'm very interested in his comments about my draft paper when I send it his way. Suffice to say that legal professionals and academics should spend much more time talking to social scientists about the behaviour of people in conflict and as they interact with legal systems. It's not so good for their heads.

exiledscouser: Your observation about the disconnect between MCLR objectives (don't want to pay my utility bill) and means (everybody hangs!) is one I have stressed in my current draft. It's odd, and I'm not sure quite what the social implications of that are, other than it emphasizes MCLR concepts are juvenile.

Oddly, I think Phoenix had already taken over the MCLR prior to Robinson's death, but that event was more a catalyst for the summer's surge of theatre of the absurd than anything else. Phoenix headed to the UK about two weeks after Robinson's death. It looks more like a synergy of factors: an ideal host community, Phoenix operating as a leader but also a peer, the various pandemic social pressures. It was indeed a dumb dream, but perhaps we should not expect much more from people with these characteristics. In Canada over the last couple years we have had what are, in many ways, equally absurd attempts to set up parallel "real" governments to displace our "de facto" oppressors. Why did that even get any attention? Perhaps similar social pressures.

NGYman: modern citations guides, particularly the US and Canadian legal ones, have detailed instructions for how to properly reference websites, and specific instructions for blogs, YouTube videos, Twitter messages, Facebook, etc. Frankly, as an old (hobbyist) academic, it feels pretty weird to me too, but I've done it a bunch of times. No challenges from journal editors. I have cited Quatloos posts, and noted my colleague Steve Kent recently relied at some length on blog commentaries by John P. Capitalist in one of Kent's papers about Nxivm.

I'm generally pointing to the Public Lawful Dissent threads on Quatloos in this way:

Gregg. (2017). “Practical Lawful Dissent FMOTL antics, continued...” Quatloos (November 24) https://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/viewto ... 52&t=11592

SteveUK. (2017). “practical lawful dissent” fmotl advisory group”. Quatloos (March 6) https://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/viewto ... 52&t=11361

I've probably got the formatting wrong. There are few more miserable tasks than trying to re-wire your brain to cite in multiple different formats. It makes it worse for my head, that the McGill Guide I use as the professional standard keeps changing the rules every couple years.

I get to rely on Quatloos because courts have ruled that Quatloos is an expert informational forum. How very convenient for me!

Donald

[longdog]

From what I have located, the closest source for MCLR theory is a group called the Magna Carta Society, who had at least some influence in the 2000 great non-revolt of the New Rebel Barons.

If memory serves The Magna Carta Society is just one bloke who fancies himself as a historian but is really just a rather right-wing crank who very occasionally gets quoted as saying something stupid in the papers.

[AnOwlCalledSage]

I had to look up AISH which I now know to be a form of state benefit within Alberta called Assured Income for the Severely Handicapped.

She is, of course, clearly severely mentally ill which is an invisible disability and I wouldn't want to second guess Alberta's reasoning for granting it.

[DNetolitzky]

There's a little more than that. The key figure was probably an individual named Ashley Mote, but he identifies a few other collaborators on Magna Carta Society websites. Here is my current review, citations and footnotes omitted.

More recent unorthodox claims that the original 1215 Magna Carta remains a binding authority appear to originate with the “Magna Carta Society”, circa 1997. This group developed and promoted a modern rebellion of barons under Article 61 of the 1215 Magna Carta to eject the UK from the European Union, and, in fact, 28 members of the House of Lords, the “New Rebel Barons”, on February 7, 2001 “petitioned” Queen Elizabeth II on that basis (Davies, 2001).

All identified accounts indicate the “Petition” led to a letter in reply by the Secretary for the Queen, and, after that, the entire matter was all but forgotten as an unorthodox piece of political theatre. The Magna Carta Society subsequently switched to spreading its ideas into UK Freeman-on-the-Land pseudolaw circles, and arguing an inalienable common law right to weapons. One of the Society’s leaders, Ashley Mote, served as the Member of the European Parliament between 2004-2009. During that period Mote was convicted of fraud and received a nine-month criminal sentence (Anonymous 2007), and then a five-year sentence for embezzling over £400,000 in European Parliament expenses (Anonymous 2015). Mote’s 2001 book, “Vigilance: A Defence of British Liberty” (Mote, 2001) is the only “legal” documentary authority relied on by the MCLR (AVI v MHVB, 2020a, paras. 80-82). The Magna Carta Society’s last known public activity is in 2017.

A neat little excursion into weirdness!

Donald

[eric]

Typical example of wikipedia not quite being completely accurate. BTW, I know the AISH system quite well because a family member and associated friends make use of it. I believe the income example you were using was referring to the Memorial Grift Fund. Assuming she still receives AISH she has numerous ways to legally handle the fund.
1. Take occasional small payments as "gifts" - exempt income;
2. Blow it all in one year by converting it from cash (non-exempt income) to exempt assets;
3. Take a monthly payment from it (non-exempt income). She can draw up to 1075 $C per month without it affecting her benefits. AISH recipients are encouraged to work as much as they are able, that is why there is a provision to handle this income
AISH is not just a benefit for those single people who are unable to work such as the Fenix, it also is designed to handle close family members with a permanent disability or people who suffer a catastrophic illness or accident. There is even a provision to account for disabled persons who may receive a large inheritance or win the lottery.

[Pottapaug1938]

AISH? Please translate, for those of us not on the eastern shore of The Pond....

[DNetolitzky]

Pottapaug1938 - apologies, I should have spelled out what AISH was: Assured Income for the Severely Handicapped. As eric has explained, AISH is an Alberta provincial program intended to provide income to marginal individuals who have difficulty working. Whether AISH actually succeeds at that is another question entirely. You might be surprised (or not) to learn that many of my professional "clientele" are AISH recipients.

I've been dredging through David Robinson's Facebook page and discovered he appears to have been the recipient of government "Disabled Living Allowance" support (www.facebook.com/david.messenger.716/po ... 5115991302), which I suspect is something similar. Purportedly David Robinson was affected by muscular dystrophy. I still have not found any indication that Robinson had any particular education, work background, or trade.

I have a new question for the UK Quatloosians: on Phoenix's PLDI Facebook group I keep encountering a family of circular design graphics like this one:



Reading between the lines, these seem to relate somehow to motor vehicles, or motor vehicle use. I get the impression stickers or tags of this type are intended to replace something official issued by the government.

Can anyone explain what these circular things are? Thanks once again!

Donald

[NYGman]

Old tax discs that stuck on the corner of the front windshield, before they went digital