"Redeeming Lawful Money"

[Gregg]

So, just to get this straight. If I get on the crazy train and assume for just a moment that there is such a thing as redeeming FRNs for lawful money, by which you mean some combination of gold, silver, specie backed currency, United States Notes and what have you....

the problem is, there are a whole lot more FRNs than there are the sum total of all the above, notwithstanding that Gold Certificates and Silver Certificates are specifically NOT redeemable for specie coin or bullion anymore. That leaves you available only the few silver and gold coins that are held by collectors or the fewer ones lost in general circulation and United States Notes. Since you cannot anymore make any demand for United States Notes anywhere, by law, it sure looks to me like the logical conclusion of your little fantasy is to take your paycheck to the bank, and demand (then wait for them to take in in deposits) silver coins. In the late eighties I happen to know that the rate that one Federal Reserve Bank District received silver coin turned in by banks was about $1,000 a month (for 1/12 of the whole country, give or take) my guess is that between the last 25 years normal depletion of the outstanding supply the fact that a quarter is now worth about $5 in bullion value making it less likely people will deposit silver coin into banks, your wait at the local S&L to cash a $350 check "in lawful money" will be about 4 years. And you're gonna need help carrying it out.

But the good news is, if you have $350 in silver coin, you can trade it at any coin or gold dealer for a lot more, if you're willing to accept Federal Reserve Notes!

BTW, specie coins turned over by banks to the Federal Reserve are forwarded to the Treasury who does I do not know what with it. Gold coins, if they ever were turned into a bank for face value, (no, they're not) would by law be forwarded to the Bullion Depository at Fort Knox, where eventually, in theory, they would be melted down. The Silver belongs to the Treasury Department, but the Gold belongs to the Fed. There are also two kinds of gold at Ft Knox, coin grade which is 90% pure, and Fine which is 99.9999% pure.

[David Merrill]

One step at a time. Get it?
I'll accept this as step one. Now tell me what the demand should say so that I have the correct words. I don't want to mess it up and have it refused because I used the wrong magical word(s). So, tell me the what the correct wording is for the demand. Nothing more. Nothing less.

You've had all weekend to produce these magic words that will start me on the road to freedom yet I cannot find them anywhere. I did see where you admitted there is no court case that backs up your BS though.

You might use the same stamp and while you are ordering ask how many of these this one vender alone has sold already? We have been making orders for about seven years now so it might behoove you to consider the verbiage we started out with.

Non-negotiable Federal Reserve Notes are US notes or other lawful money like postage stamps. It is fiduciary responsibility to only negotiate Up. You cannot legally negotiate Down because that is shorting the shareholders, even if that is only one private person/yourself. Federal Reserve notes are stock certificates.

Demanding alone frees you from the presumed obligations (assumpsit) surrounding the legal personage.

Whatever...

They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand...


We are still They to you Poppycock. We are redeemed. You will eventually become like us or die off first; your choice.

So if I redeem you what do I get? What is the going rate for redeeming one David Merrill? A nickel? A bucket of warm spit? A pound of cow patties?

According to Western tradition you get eternal life in a mansion located in the kingdom of heaven. Jesus CHRIST is the Redeemer. Congress is simply expressing redemption is available. Say it for yourselves kiddies:

Remedy

Redemption

Do you get it now? The words are both from the same linguistic compartment. You can say it so many ways and the bond (2X is the general bond rule E(8)) will always come through for you if you know how to hold your tongue right.

It works both ways if you have the Key. Congress meant the Federal Reserve notes in the first sentence or Congress meant the legal persons who do it, make their demand. They become liberated of the debt action in assumpsit called the National Debt.

So, just to get this straight. If I get on the crazy train and assume for just a moment that there is such a thing as redeeming FRNs for lawful money, by which you mean some combination of gold, silver, specie backed currency, United States Notes and what have you....

By which you mean...

That is not what I mean Gregg. If I ever were to cash a check, redeeming lawful money I would walk away from the teller with Federal Reserve notes and you know it. I have explained that in 1971 the Treasury, not Congress agreed to keep the US notes in limited circulation. Since the FRNs in hand are fully bonded at that point they are lawful money. My demand for lawful money on record means that I have not consented to my bank fractionally lending on any funds that my work-product has put into the system. I am no longer a support brick, my dabar (word/signature) in the zigurat.


Regards,

David Merrill.


P.S. Wesley;


According to chatter about your Hit Parade, you have failed to accomplish your real objective, which was to discredit redeeming lawful money. I was so embarrassed for you that I did not start linking my posts here until yesterday.

[Randall]

We have been making orders for about seven years now so it might behoove you to consider the verbiage we started out with.

So, the essence of your magic words is that you are paying the bill with FRNs and that FRNs are not payment?

[David Merrill]

We have been making orders for about seven years now so it might behoove you to consider the verbiage we started out with.

So, the essence of your magic words is that you are paying the bill with FRNs and that FRNs are not payment?

That's right. FRNs will discharge an obligation but they never pay off the first lien by the Treasury. That lien carries over.

[Gregg]

Oh, so you're just making shit up.

Gotcha

[David Merrill]

Oh, so you're just making sh*t up.

Gotcha

I did not read your post past your fabrication. Maybe it had some substance later in the post?

You are the one making stuff up Gregg, not I.

[David Merrill]

So, just to get this straight. If I get on the crazy train and assume for just a moment that there is such a thing as redeeming FRNs for lawful money, by which you mean some combination of gold, silver, specie backed currency, United States Notes and what have you....

the problem is, there are a whole lot more FRNs than there are the sum total of all the above, notwithstanding that Gold Certificates and Silver Certificates are specifically NOT redeemable for specie coin or bullion anymore...

Which is exactly why Congress had to write remedy from elastic currency in 1913 Gregg.

[morrand]

Let me try to follow this, in no particular order:

• FRNs are share certificates. Because they are shares of the government, and the government is "of the people," it follows that the FRNs represent shares of the people.
• FRNs are somehow so defined in the part of the law imposing the income tax, evidently on the principle that the tax represents tribute. Possibly the tax, being the output of the people's labor, is collected as a way for the government to reap the benefits of the people's labor. In other words, the income tax is a form of forced servitude--slavery--for the benefit of the government.
• As share certificates, FRNs are inherently elastic. This is as opposed to lawful money, which is inherently inelastic: there can only be so much money, but we can divide a person into however many shares we desire.
• We know this is true, because someone drew a spiral on a map and someone talked to a security guard in an office building. (No, I confess, I can't parse these connections.)
• FRNs remain share certificates until they are redeemed, at which point they are transmuted from share certificates into lawful money.
• By being redeemed into lawful money, they move from the jurisdiction of Title 26 (tax | slavery) to Title 12 (money). This removes them from the application of the income tax, since they are no longer under the jurisdiction of the section dealing with tax.
• By being redeemed, they also cancel out ownership of the government (i.e., the people). Thus, the people represented in those FRNs are redeemed: they are no longer possessed by the government and are free to live a life of spiritual fulfillment.

Is this close? If not, please correct. I have to say, Mr. Merrill, that your logic is exceptionally hard to follow. It would help if you could explain these connections that you see so clearly between all of these things.

[Judge Roy Bean]

Let me try to follow this, in no particular order:

...

Is this close? If not, please correct. I have to say, Mr. Merrill, that your logic is exceptionally hard to follow. It would help if you could explain these connections that you see so clearly between all of these things.

It would be close only if there were a construct in which it meant something. There is no logic to follow and any further explanations Van Pelt might provide would probably wander off into even more bizarre exhibitions of delusional thinking.

In the David Merrill Van Pelt world, almost anything, no matter how bizarre, is possible and if there isn't sufficient proof to support the theory posited, all you have to do is make stuff up.

Failure on the part of readers to accept or believe doesn't matter; there are always sufficient numbers of the ignorant to prey on.

[The Observer]

Let me try to follow this, in no particular order:

I think that is the most cogent explanation of David's theory ever attempted by someone not from Planet Merrill. Not that it means that David's theory actually makes sense now, since it never has and never will, but you seemed to be able to express what David was never able to up to now.

[David Merrill]

Like I said, let the Congress, courts and IRS attorneys decide. Not Quatlosers.

[wserra]

Morrand, that was brilliant.

[Famspear]

Like I said, let the Congress, courts and IRS attorneys decide. Not Quatlosers.

David, generally the Congress enacts the law. The IRS attorneys help enforce the law. It is the courts who decide what the law is -- when parties litigate disputes.

Quatloos regulars do not "decide" the law, and we do not claim to be "deciding" the law. We explain the law. We explain what Congress has enacted; we explain what the courts have decided. Our explanations are correct because we know what we are doing. You don't.

[mpo]

Let me try to follow this, in no particular order:

• FRNs are share certificates. Because they are shares of the government, and the government is "of the people," it follows that the FRNs represent shares of the people.

This also lead to some interesting paradoxes. If you are able to move 'out of the system' with a finite, inelastic monetary system, you are actually expanding the money supply for those left behind. The market is a dynamic system, so of course there will be a reaction.

You'll end up like Michael Corleone, "Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in."

[The Observer]

You'll end up like Michael Corleone, "Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in."

And that is something that David never accounts for in his redemption theory. As I understand the general idea of redemption, it is a one-time thing. Yet, under David's construction, you have to keep going to the well over and over again every time you pick up an FRN. Seems to be a waste of energy.

And the other thought I had was this: What if those within the system decided to not accept "lawful" money but only FRNs for purchases? How would David be able to enter into a transaction if he only had "lawful" money? I don't see anything in his theory that provides for a way to convert "lawful" money into FRNs. How do you unredeem "lawful" money? And if there was a method to convert "lawful" money back into FRNs, would that create a taxable event?

[Kestrel]

[*]As share certificates, FRNs are inherently elastic. This is as opposed to lawful money, which is inherently inelastic: there can only be so much money, but we can divide a person into however many shares we desire.
[*]FRNs remain share certificates until they are redeemed, at which point they are transmuted from share certificates into lawful money.

Ah yes, but...

You can have an infinite supply of FRNs, which you multiply every time you borrow money from a bank or use a credit card. So the total potential number of FRNs is effectively infinity times infinity.

You only have a finite supply of Lawful Money.

FRNs are converted to Lawful Money at a one-to-one conversion rate.

So long as only DMVP and a few of his friends are converting FRNs to Lawful Money, the one-to-one conversion rate is not a problem. What if everyone decided to convert their FRNs to lawful money? Either you keep it at one-to-one and hope the 200 million people who arrived in line after 4AM don't have guns, or you pay off everyone at a conversion rate which can only be viewed through an electron microscope and hope no one at all has guns.

[David Merrill]

[*]As share certificates, FRNs are inherently elastic. This is as opposed to lawful money, which is inherently inelastic: there can only be so much money, but we can divide a person into however many shares we desire.
[*]FRNs remain share certificates until they are redeemed, at which point they are transmuted from share certificates into lawful money.

Ah yes, but...

You can have an infinite supply of FRNs, which you multiply every time you borrow money from a bank or use a credit card. So the total potential number of FRNs is effectively infinity times infinity.

You only have a finite supply of Lawful Money.

FRNs are converted to Lawful Money at a one-to-one conversion rate.

So long as only DMVP and a few of his friends are converting FRNs to Lawful Money, the one-to-one conversion rate is not a problem. What if everyone decided to convert their FRNs to lawful money? Either you keep it at one-to-one and hope the 200 million people who arrived in line after 4AM don't have guns, or you pay off everyone at a conversion rate which can only be viewed through an electron microscope and hope no one at all has guns.

What you do is declare another Bankers' Holiday.

Notice how HJR-192 was repealed except of course the ability for the Secretary or the President to declare a Bankers' Holiday.


Public Law 94-412 Page 1.
Public Law 94-412 Stipulations.

See that how the authorities are not repealed under the Trading with the Enemy Act at §5(b) which is codified at Title 12 USC §95a?

Interestingly Title 12 USC 95(a) has two distinctly different readings.

In order to provide for the safer and more effective operation of the National Banking System and the Federal Reserve System, to preserve for the people the full benefits of the currency provided for by the Congress through the National Banking System and the Federal Reserve System, and to relieve interstate commerce of the burdens and obstructions resulting from the receipt on an unsound or unsafe basis of deposits subject to withdrawal by check, during such emergency period as the President of the United States by proclamation may prescribe, no member bank of the Federal Reserve System shall transact any banking business except to such extent and subject to such regulations, limitations and restrictions as may be prescribed by the Secretary of the Treasury, with the approval of the President.

So even with the Emergency declared over, the President still has broad executive power to regulate gold and the power under the same citation (just without parenthesis) to shut down all the banks.



Not only that but the Secretary has that same power as well, independent of the President.

The actions, regulations, rules, licenses, orders and proclamations heretofore or hereafter taken, promulgated, made, or issued by the President of the United States or the Secretary of the Treasury since March 4, 1933, pursuant to the authority conferred by section 95a of this title, are approved and confirmed.

Under either citation of §95a, the Congress has already approved all actions by either the Secretary or the President.

This is why the redemption is a carefully regulated release system of the highly compressed information infrastructure, being government debt and citizen endorsed government bonds.


Regards,

David Merrill.

[David Merrill]

Like I said, let the Congress, courts and IRS attorneys decide. Not Quatlosers.

David, generally the Congress enacts the law. The IRS attorneys help enforce the law. It is the courts who decide what the law is -- when parties litigate disputes.

Quatloos regulars do not "decide" the law, and we do not claim to be "deciding" the law. We explain the law. We explain what Congress has enacted; we explain what the courts have decided. Our explanations are correct because we know what we are doing. You don't.

That is just silly! My first post on this thread explained what Congress said and meant by,

They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand...

Look here, before 1934 and afterward.

I showed you what happened in 1934 too. How FDR opened the FRN up for people to endorse with their salary checks.



If the $20 bill linked above was lawful money why would it be redeemable in lawful money? Why would the courts agree with me that Federal Reserve notes are not lawful money?

In the exercise of that power Congress has declared that Federal Reserve Notes are legal tender and are redeemable in lawful money.

and

United States notes shall be lawful money, and a legal tender in payment of all debts, public and private, within the United States, except for duties on imports and interest on the public debt.

I have even linked you to the cases so you might get the proper context!

I appreciate the sense of winning but arguing with legal infants is a little too easy to consider much of an accomplishment. I have convincing sanitized examples but just cannot post them here. Wserra admits the purpose of this thread is to get into the Google Hit Parade because he can see there is a lot of momentum to this Redeeming Lawful Money. Because there is such an allure to getting a full refund of your withholdings.

I feel his project has projected, as you like to put it here.



Regards,

David Merrill.

[wserra]

Why would the courts agree with me that Federal Reserve notes are not lawful money?

They don't.

In the exercise of that power Congress has declared that Federal Reserve Notes are legal tender and are redeemable in lawful money.

As you have done before, David, you leave out the rest of the case:

Defendant argues that the Federal Reserve Notes in which he was paid were not lawful money within the meaning of Art. 1, § 8, United States Constitution. We have held to the contrary. United States v. Ware, 10 Cir., 608 F.2d 400, 402-403. We find no validity in the distinction which defendant draws between "lawful money" and "legal tender."

Emphasis supplied. You claim that a court says that FRNs are not lawful money when the court actually says, quite clearly and explicitly, that they are. And you omit the part of the decision that says so. That's dishonesty.

You deserve to have your say. You even deserve the opportunity to misrepresent the law, if only so that readers can see you do so. You don't deserve the opportunity to repeat the same bullshit over and over.

[Kestrel]

You can have an infinite supply of FRNs

You only have a finite supply of Lawful Money.

What if everyone decided to convert their FRNs to lawful money? Either you keep it at one-to-one and hope the 200 million people who arrived in line after 4AM don't have guns, or you pay off everyone at a conversion rate which can only be viewed through an electron microscope and hope no one at all has guns.

What you do is declare another Bankers' Holiday.

Option (A) then. Lock the bank doors. Open the doors at "carefully regulated release" intervals allowing a "carefully regulated release" number of people to redeem FRNs. Hope the 200 million people who arrived in line after 4AM don't have guns. I suppose you'd send out SWAT, the Army and the National Guard for good measure.

Yeah, that's gonna work.

No matter how long you stretch out the "carefully regulated release" you still don't have enough "Lawful Money" to redeem all the FRNs. You never will.

The US has 8133.5 metric tonnes of gold. Gold closed today at 1567.90 per ounce. The M-2 supply on April 30 was $9,842,300,000,000

If I did my math right, that means there are currently $24 in FRNs for every available $1 of Lawful Money. That's not going to change. More than 95% of all FRN holders will never be able to convert their FRNs to Lawful Money, no matter how long your bank holiday lasts.

...the redemption is a carefully regulated release system of the highly compressed information infrastructure, being government debt and citizen endorsed government bonds.

So you're proposing those other 95%+ trade their FRNs for Bonds. Mmm hmm. We'll just swap paper money for paper government bonds. Try trading a government bond for groceries this week. See if that works.

Cheeze, I can't believe I wasted the time to type this. I could have been filing my toenails.