ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

[grimreaper]

.

Except under civil forfeiture laws, any funds not directly attributable to the operations of NASI are not subject to confiscation. And, in my view, it's morally reprehensible to deprive an accused but not yet convicted individual of funds needed to defend himself. Think of the situation in which an individual is unfairly accused.

Agree..yet tell me where Gillis has funds not attributable to NASI? He's been in this since 1997!!

[grimreaper]

Letters from receiver have been sent out already. Confirmed.

[Tednewsom]

MarvinGardens wrote:.

Except under civil forfeiture laws, any funds not directly attributable to the operations of NASI are not subject to confiscation. And, in my view, it's morally reprehensible to deprive an accused but not yet convicted individual of funds needed to defend himself. Think of the situation in which an individual is unfairly accused.

Agree..yet tell me where Gillis has funds not attributable to NASI? He's been in this since 1997!!

Yes, and Wishner has had twelve years to sock it away, launder it, cook the books, establish holding companies in other names and stuff the mattress.

As for my hypothetical lawyers who made hypothetical money: of course they could profit. Clawbacks only reach back four years, leaving money generated for the first 8. The "ATM" matures in 6. That's at least two years of gravy per contract, untouchable. If the chumps were smart enough to stop pouring good money after bad, that's profit.

If we are to believe anything old Beverlyhillsguy wrote, there's at least one investor who had a hundred, maybe 200 of these things, early on. Figure $300/month x 12 months: $3600. Times 200 contracts: $720,000. Times just two years: $1,440,000. (Of course, that's if they got smart instead of greedy and stopped buying the stupid things with their "profits.".)

[grimreaper]

Yes, and Wishner has had twelve years to sock it away, launder it, cook the books, establish holding companies in other names and stuff the mattress.

As for my hypothetical lawyers who made hypothetical money: of course they could profit. Clawbacks only reach back four years, leaving money generated for the first 8. The "ATM" matures in 6. That's at least two years of gravy per contract, untouchable. If the chumps were smart enough to stop pouring good money after bad, that's profit.

If we are to believe anything old Beverlyhillsguy wrote, there's at least one investor who had a hundred, maybe 200 of these things, early on. Figure $300/month x 12 months: $3600. Times 200 contracts: $720,000. Times just two years: $1,440,000. (Of course, that's if they got smart instead of greedy and stopped buying the stupid things with their "profits.".)

Ok, lets say this guy was in the last 15 years with 200 contracts. I'm' using $200/mo per contract, since that's what the ave is for all the people I know who paid 10K ea. That's $480K per year not $720K. That's 7.2M for 15 years. Subtract the 2M he paid (assume 10K per) and you have 5.2M profit. Clawback for last 4 years is 1.9M, so he will have a net profit of 3.3M over the 15 years. Not as a great a return you think it is on his initial investment 15 years ago of 2M . Not too shabby though, almost equivalent to putting it away at 6.5% compounded monthly. However, that would have been a safer choice.

[The Observer]

If we are to believe anything old Beverlyhillsguy wrote,...

And yet, as you have correctly pointed out, Beveryhillsguy was so dead wrong in claiming that NASI was a legitimate going concern. Given that proven fact, I am absolutely sure we should not believe anything he says and certainly not speculate on figures that he provided. Just the issue alone that showed his post came from an ISP not that far away from NASI's office instead of the airport he claimed he was posting from is more evidence to not believe him and indeed wonder if he was not really Joel or Ed trying to squelch the Horn of Truth here on Quatloos.

[Tednewsom]

For what it's worth, my take on beverlyhillsguy is not that he was secretly either Wishner or Gillis. A booster & cheerleader, yes, and someone who whose confidence in the NASI scheme was somewhere around 97% solid. He did, several times, shrug and admit, "OK, it might be a Ponzi scam," which is scarcely something I would say if I were Gillis or Wishner defending myself pseudonymously.

And for all his particulars which others here argued with him about depreciation, amortization, civilization and prestidigitation, he came off far more knowledgeable with regard to business and finance than Gillis himself. The one example we have of Gillis expressing himself is the Australian interview, and frankly, ol' Joel comes off like he has only a basic grasp of his own company operations, and an even vaguer understanding of finance in general. Nothing particularly sophisticated, just a street-smart insurance salesman who knew some of the right buzz words. Our beverlyhillguy seemed smarter than that. Full of himself, okay, and in the end, naïve and blinded, but not ignorant.

[ghensuijuris]

Despite my lack of formal business training, I persevere to make an honest living. Been burned quite badly by failure to perform due diligence.
I just want to post a sincere thanks to webhick, (as I recall), for making available the SEC documents which investors need to grasp the enormity of their situation in full. Whatever I may have to offer beyond that deeply felt thank you is likely minor stuff. But awesome that you found, posted and sustained the truth!

[Tednewsom]

Hang in there, guy. We'll see how it all shakes down.

PS.: Next time, don't... well, you know.

[Tednewsom]

Now, why didn't I ever notice this? 1998. Utah?

http://www.securities.utah.gov/dockets/98000901.pdf

[notorial dissent]

Wasn't this about the time of the original filing with the SEC? Can't find my notes now. Maybe a dry run?

[snookered]

This is Huge!


http://www.nasi-receivership.com/wp-con ... ceiver.pdf

[Llwellyn]

So after reading the PDF .. there is currently about $500k sitting around on an approximately 120 Million dollar scam... with say $100k per month to be received from the current existing ATMS. (Until they are sold/dispensed with to reclaim value) This on pure mathematics.. seems to be (from the listed 2450 'investors' etc.. AND not knowing the others that could show up) seems to be that .. at best .. current funds to be returned will be about 1/100th of the investment value.. so on a $20,000 purchase, those who did so, will probably get back, about $200 .. Just trying to prepare people for the worst. Such a sad sad state of affairs, you would think that these scammers would have at least hidden $1 mil somewhere.. for a rainy day.. (Do I see clouds on the horizon)

[Tednewsom]

So Gillis just cruised the phone books and when some place said they had an ATM on premises, bingo, he uses the address to dummy up his paperwork.

And at least now it's officially recognized, that there were two price points, $12,000 and $19,800, for the same thing. Note to our absent beverlyhillsguy: told you. Azzzzzhole.

[Tednewsom]

Wasn't this about the time of the original filing with the SEC? Can't find my notes now. Maybe a dry run?

Yes. This was filed March 30 1998:

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/conta ... 000655.txt

And the Utah thing came three months later in June. The Utah thumbs-down (to me) seems the likely reason they did not proceed any further with trying to get an imprimatur from the SEC, rather than Gillis' excuse given to his salesperson, "Oh, that was a different company," or some such dodge.

[notorial dissent]

My suspicion is that if they figured they couldn't get past a local overview they certainly couldn't get past the SEC, and they would have been right. So instead they skipped it altogether and go away with it for nearly 20 years.

[webhick]

The Receiver is also aware that NASI made large transfers to an entity called Fuel Doctor, LLC ("Fuel Doctor"). Fuel Doctor apparently owns technology that it claims increases a car's gas mileage. The Receiver has issued subpoenas to Fuel Doctor and its principal, Mark Soffa, and is gathering more information on the transfers and relationship between the entities. If the information gathered indicates that Fuel Doctor should be deemed an a ffiliate of NASI, the Receiver will request that such a determintion be made.

Maybe this will be a two-fer for the gov't: while in the process of killing NASI, they may also shut down Fuel Doctor.

[obadiah]

From the PDF:

When Gillis was asked if there were more ATM Locations on the lists than
actual ATMs, he responded that there were a lot more addresses for ATMs than
actual ATMs. Gillis was then asked where these addresses on the list came from
and he responded that he would look through the yellow pages, call businesses, and
ask if they had an ATM at their location. If he was told the business had an ATM,
he would use the address as one for the falsified list of ATMs associated with each
investor. Gillis also stated the serial numbers for the ATMs assigned to each
investor were simply made up.

If he is admitting this now and has counsel, why in the world would he admit all this unless he had some sort of deal in place?

[The Observer]

Maybe this will be a two-fer for the gov't: while in the process of killing NASI, they may also shut down Fuel Doctor.

At which point we will find out that Fuel Doctor invested all its ill-gotten gains in dinars and free-energy devices being made in Morocco.

[notorial dissent]

Maybe this will be a two-fer for the gov't: while in the process of killing NASI, they may also shut down Fuel Doctor.

I shouldn't bet the Fuel Doctor transactions will bare too close a scrutiny, could get interesting, and rid of another of them

[The Observer]

If he is admitting this now and has counsel, why in the world would he admit all this unless he had some sort of deal in place?

Perhaps he thought if he cooperates it will result in him getting a lighter sentence? Given the fact that he is in his 60's. he may be hoping his age as well will minimize the time he has to serve.

Or he just may be tired of the whole situation and is looking to get this off his chest. It had to be quite a sinking feeling in his stomach for the last few months as he watched the whole scam starting to fall apart so rapidly.