ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Stock and Bond Fraud, including Boiler Rooms / Pump and Dump Schemes, Mutual Fund & Hedge Fund Fraud, FOREX scams, plus Churning, Private Placements, Venture and Bridge Funding, IPOs, Viaticals Fraud, HYIP and Prime Bank scams, MTNs, Historical Notes, Recovery Schemes, etc. Includes the Jim Norman Project and the Michael Dotson Project and similar HYIP scams.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by Tednewsom »

10 year investor wrote: I've had white collar crime investigators check them out and I've talked to their personal banker at their old bank who gave me basic numbers of what was running through the account.
I believe Joel and his partner to be honest men and don't believe they would risk going to jail or their families going to jail and 19 years of a proven thing is a long time.
This could still be a Ponzi scheme but from what I've been privy to, it's not.
10 Year Investor... you have apparently profited from this, you like Mr. Gillis, and have positive things to say about the enterprise. And yet you hired a white collar crime detective to investigate them, and reiterate several times that "... it could still be a Ponzi scheme."

Ummmm.... am I missing something that would tie this together? What I'm getting is that you suspected this was crooked from the start... jumped in with both feet, but then hired a specialist to figure out what was wrong... relaxed and accepted that it was fine, but then panicked and checked the whole thing out with the bank... was happy with the ATM schtick, but then flipped 180 degrees back to suspicion and got together with other worried clients to double-check serial numbers and locations... and now you regret the sad passage of a trustworthy enterprise.... which you still think might be a Ponzi scheme.

Is that about right? :thinking:
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by 10 year investor »

I'm paranoid by nature. I always wondered if it was too good to be true as I think everyone in it did. I did most of my checking before I bought more than what I had originally. If everything is on the up and up, the math works. Everyone I know paid $12k and were never offered an incentive to get others. It was never worth even trying because people didn't believe it and it made me look bad. Anytime you can't see your money, there's a psychological barrier to trust it completely. At least with me. I haven't calculated it but I think I'm about even as some machines are under contract 2-3 years and I think about 70% of investors are even or better.

To say 100% this isn't a Ponzi scheme would be naive. I'd be shocked if it is. From what I've seen, this is the SEC hammering a business that wasn't compliant with the law and they stand to get $20 plus million in forfeited assets. Nobody has been arrested, no personal assets seized and the computers are still operating and the business is still running. The only thing they can't do is issue checks which the receiver will do once they step in. Like I said, we'll know in a week or two.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by investor »

Everybody read 10 Year Investor, he know what he is talking about.

To Ted Newsom...........you might consider paying your friends mortgage until this is resolved so that they do not lose their home. If the SEC was not harassed into investigating NASI your friends income stream would not have stopped.

Joel and Ed have been running a REAL business with REAL ATM'S and REAL Income until you all pressed to have this investigated.

To Worried............the light shines............and the truth shows.........you were worried about your inheritance. Shall I say it again INHERITANCE.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by investor »

To Ted Newsom............I still wonder what is this all to you? Could it be unrequited love? I think you need to get a life and stay out of other peoples business.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by Pottapaug1938 »

More useless quotes from "investor".

To paraphrase one of our regulars' quotes, the plural of anecdotes is not fact, Bub. You need to much better if you want to do more than waste our time. Your excuse about the mean ol' SEC stopping the NASI cash flow because it was "harrassed" into making an investigation is an old one here, and has never held water.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by worried »

10 yr investor:

Since you seem to be the only investor I've personally heard has actual serial numbers of machines you own, then YOU don't have a problem:
Paragraph 8 of the contract I was sent (which should be similar to yours) specifically states that you have all the rights of ownership of YOUR machines. You can therefore just take control and hire someone else to manage them for you and send you a check every month. Problem solved. Right?

And, you know what? This advice goes for all of you that really believe NASI is legitimate. Those of you that DON'T have serial numbers or some proof of ownership of your ATM's might have a little more trouble. You'll have to ask Joel for it of course ( :snicker: ), but do it. Go repossess YOUR machines, exercise your right as stated in your contract. You don't have any reason to complain on this website, just repossess your machines.
Last edited by worried on Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by MarvinGardens »

What follows is a position paper by the ATM Industry Association - (Hat tip to worried.)

I'd like to ask "investor" and "10 year investor" to explain to us how NASI can pay a guaranteed 20% return to its investors while investing the proceeds in a business that yields on average 7%. The figure comes from a white paper by ATMIA. If you want to see it quoted by the financial press, search my posts. There aren't many.

If you can't answer this question in a coherent way, professionals will classify you as "dumb money" or faith based investors and your comments will likely be ignored as having no useful content.

__________________________________________
Position: ATMIA

1 believes the practice of selling ATMs to private investors involves
key risks which should all be identified upfront during negotiations and that this
disclosure of risks should be part of best practice in the private investment model
for ATM sales.

Background

One fairly recent ATM business model involves selling ATMs to private investors, who
then lease them back to the seller or a third party for a fixed or variable rental. However,
this type of arrangement creates a risk of loss for the investors when the ATM placement
fails to support the anticipated rate of return on investment. This is particularly the case
when the lease arrangement is accompanied by ‘guaranteed’ rates of return, when it is not
always possible to guarantee transaction levels for ATM installations, particularly at new
sites. When the guaranteed returns are funded by further ATM sales, the arrangement has
the hallmarks of a Ponzi scheme.

Problems with this model have resulted in substantial bad publicity to the ATM industry.
It should be noted that only a tiny fraction of ATMs are sold in today’s worldwide
industry using this model. Nevertheless, it is important to adopt best practice in each
case. Unfortunate examples of private investments in ATM sales and leases which have
failed are very much the exception rather than the norm in an otherwise robust, well governed and well-established ATM industry.

1. The ATM Industry Association is a global, non-profit trade association serving all businesses and groups in the ATM industry. The association is made up of over 2500 members in 60 countries. We currently represent over one million ATMs internationally. For more information go to – http://www.atmia.com.

Statement of Position

This model can only work if all the key risks involved are identified and discussed during
negotiations, especially if the potential investors are using life savings to fund the
purchases. It is vital to safeguard against significant personal losses of private savings by
informing the private investor of such factors as past performance of similar investments
and the on-going risks of failure.

Another best practice should be to exclude guaranteed investment returns on ATM
installations, which create the risk that the arrangement comprises a Ponzi scheme.

Rationale for Position

Significant risk factors, listed below, and bad publicity for the ATM industry arising from
this business model, have prompted the Association to issue this position paper as a
necessary word of caution.

One important risk is that the ATMs sold will not achieve the average number of
monthly transactions projected at the time of the sale, or that the ATM may, in
fact, become unprofitable; in these cases, such ATMs will not generate adequate
revenue to fund the “guarantee” return promised to the capital investors, raising
the financial risk profile of the company adopting this model.

There are important contractual risks in that the model depends upon third-party
service-providers actually delivering on all their contractual obligations for
servicing, maintaining and replenishing machines on an on-going basis.

Further risk factors include the need for a continued appetite of private investors
to invest in ATMs in order to keep supplying new ATMs to ensure growth of the
company employing this business model and funding ongoing guaranteed returns
– an unlikely scenario given the bad publicity which has already been generated.

Recommendation

For the above reasons, ATMIA strongly recommends the immediate implementation of
these best practices for all private investment business models for ATM sales, given that
the current situation is clearly untenable.
worried
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by worried »

investor wrote:Everybody read 10 Year Investor, he know what he is talking about.

To Ted Newsom...........you might consider paying your friends mortgage until this is resolved so that they do not lose their home. If the SEC was not harassed into investigating NASI your friends income stream would not have stopped.

Joel and Ed have been running a REAL business with REAL ATM'S and REAL Income until you all pressed to have this investigated.

To Worried............the light shines............and the truth shows.........you were worried about your inheritance. Shall I say it again INHERITANCE.
you... don't....know.... a .... god... damn.... thing... about .... me... and.... my .... family... member....

You,... on the other hand... are putting your utter lack of logical ability on display for the whole world.... go repossess your goddamn machines and SHUT UP
If you have to "Believe" something, that means you can't prove that it's true... please, for your own sake, speak and act accordingly...
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by Zenbeing9 »

peace
Last edited by Zenbeing9 on Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by worried »

Oh really? You ALL have serial numbers?... 'poorronald' told me otherwise, 'BoardwalkJohn' told us ALL otherwise on this forum... post your serial numbers, locations, anything you think proves you own ATMs. I don't know why you're crying, you've apparently made a BUNCH of money, you can therefore afford to get into running your own little ATM empire and make even MORE money. Or... just sell your machines to someone else, you have PROOF, PROOF! of how much money they're making, right?... Your theatrics are SO TRANSPARENT, it's actually entertaining! You don't even sound like a real victim, you sound like a knowing perpetrator. Or maybe you're one of those self-deceived people described in the University of Exeter article I posted a page or two back.

I'm sure the ATMIA website should be abuzz with the HORRIBLE INJUSTICE done by the SEC to one of their brethren... keep checking their website, I"m sure it'll be on there anyday now....
If you have to "Believe" something, that means you can't prove that it's true... please, for your own sake, speak and act accordingly...
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by imnewhere »

If you have paperwork that indicates a serial number of a specific ATM listed at a specific location I will clearly tell you that the only thing you own, for sure, is paperwork that indicates a serial number of a specific ATM listed at a specific location. That's all. Paperwork. What everyone has missed in ALL of these posts is that all one needs is independent verification of the truth. I did my due diligence. To all that are invested, this story, IMO, will have a bad ending. I am sorry for your loss.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by worried »

welcome back imnewhere...
If you have to "Believe" something, that means you can't prove that it's true... please, for your own sake, speak and act accordingly...
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by JamesVincent »

I'm going to go back through what you wrote here, 10 year, and point out some things that are quite different from what we've been told by other investors.
10 year investor wrote:I've invested with Nationwide for 10 years and know Joel very well. Hopefully I can shed some light on things. He's still in town and returning some calls but as expected, the phone rings nonstop. I was referred by a client and bought 10 machines in the beginning thinking it could very well be a Ponzi scheme. Got my checks every month for 3 years and didn't have one interaction with anyone. There were no solicitations then either. It was going well so I called Joel and asked if I could buy more. He didn't have any at the time and I waited 3 months to get more. Other times I waited 6 months. They finally started mailing out machine availability so they wouldn't get so many calls. I've had breakfasts and lunches with Joel, called him at his office at 7 am and he always picked up etc. He's always there. This is his baby. Or was.

They have always brought in investors. Initially because they had no money but always so they can buy machines for the company. For $12,000, Nationwide can buy 3 machines.SomeYuppie quoted Joel as saying the machines cost him upwards to $8k, kinda hard to buy 3 of them at $12k. Also, MarvinGardens contract that he posted stated $19.8k per. One for the investor and 2 for the company so that part of the model makes sense and it's not a secret.Apparently it is from everyone we have talked to. We had talked before about NAS buying two at a time but 3? No one who had posted here knew that. I have sold machines over the years and got full price for them within days. I personally know investors who have over 2000 machines and we have all compared locations and serial numbers. Several people have posted that they were not told their serial numbers, only locations. Never a match. I've had white collar crime investigators check them out and I've talked to their personal banker at their old bank who gave me basic numbers of what was running through the account. I've seen some of the machines I own.In the contract that was posted it states that you are not allowed anywhere near "your" machine. And several other people who claimed to be involved have alos said the same thing. I believe Joel and his partner to be honest men and don't believe they would risk going to jail or their families going to jail and 19 years of a proven thing is a long time. Just on the people I know, $400k goes to them each month.

I can shed light on what is going on now. After a complaint, the SEC sent Nationwide an administrative subpoena requesting documents back in June. Nationwide hired counsel and complied. As of now, no Ponzi scheme has been uncovered. Nothing has been seized which I think would if there was fraud scheme. If they are unable to pay their payments then something has indeed been seized, and I would take a wild guess that is what caused them to bounce checks last month. However, Nationwide will be shut down for selling unregistered securities. The business accounts have been frozen seized and a receiver will come in within a week and temporarily take over operations until all investors are made whole. It will take about $100 million to do that but the company generates $25 million a month in income from investor and company machines. Nationwide will get none of that. It will take 4-6 months for everyone to get paid starting with the newer investors. Once done, the machines will be sold for $1000 or whatever and the receiver and government will keep the proceeds. There should be funds to make everyone whole as long as they don't screw it up. We will get a letter from the receiver detailing this. They will go after Joel and Ed personally but it doesn't sound like it will be necessary.

This could still be a Ponzi scheme but from what I've been privy to, it's not. And if it's not, then the outcome of taking a successful 20 year business away from 2 men is sad. They had a large law firm advise them they didn't need to register and I saw that in writing.The maybe they should sue the law firm that wrote that letter. Every other ATM leaseback that has been busted has been busted first for selling unregistered securities. And then possibly a Ponzi. And if they honestly thought that they didn't need to be registered, why did they try to register back in, what, 07? Again, it could still be a Ponzi scheme but I would be shocked based on what I have seen and know. We'll see how it shakes out in the next few weeks.
One of the problems so far in this discussion has been the multiple people that have chimed in for support of NAS, either with anecdotes or criticisms. Not one has posted any real paperwork to back up what they have said. On the other hand, several dissenters have indeed posted parts of contracts or other material to back up what they say. And since NAS does not seem to enjoy advertising there is no real information out there on them. One of the ongoing themes of this whole thread has been that what they are doing makes no business sense, and it still doesn't, though it makes more sense now that we learn they are buying 3 machines from each investor, instead of one or two.

At the end of the day, whether or not it is a Ponzi, they were still selling illegal securities, which is, horror of horrors, illegal. So the whole honest businessmen, nice guys, etc. just doesn't cut it. They went into an illegal business of their own free will and got caught, just like every other company busted over the years for selling illegal securities. And now, since they decided to do that, their investors are going to be up in the air until someone else fixes it.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by The Observer »

JamesVincent wrote:At the end of the day, whether or not it is a Ponzi, they were still selling illegal securities, which is, horror of horrors, illegal. So the whole honest businessmen, nice guys, etc. just doesn't cut it. They went into an illegal business of their own free will and got caught, just like every other company busted over the years for selling illegal securities. And now, since they decided to do that, their investors are going to be up in the air until someone else fixes it.
The other thing to point out here is that illegal securities sales always end up cheating someone in the process. They aren't illegal because they are successful and have lots of happy customers. They are illegal because the operators are taking advantage of someone somewhere, whether a buyer or seller, in the process of the operators getting their money.

And that is another reason to read MarvinGarden's Feb 09 post again that sheds a lot of light on how NASI possibly structured this whole operation. Maybe Joel and Co. thought they were clever enough to keep this "investment vehicle" running for a long time and that they had a sure-fire plan to ensure that the checks keep coming in. The problem is that these schemes never plan for a rainy day, a downturn in the economy, natural or man-made disasters, or a change in how the world does business. So it is inevitable that one day the whole house of cards collapse.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by JamesVincent »

imnewhere wrote:If you have paperwork that indicates a serial number of a specific ATM listed at a specific location I will clearly tell you that the only thing you own, for sure, is paperwork that indicates a serial number of a specific ATM listed at a specific location. That's all. Paperwork. What everyone has missed in ALL of these posts is that all one needs is independent verification of the truth. I did my due diligence. To all that are invested, this story, IMO, will have a bad ending. I am sorry for your loss.
In one of SomeYuppie's posts we discussed that very fact and SomeYuppie agreed and even argued that NAS retained all rights to the machine, and then brought up that there was an insurance policy that would supposedly cover the investor if something did happen.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by Dhyerwolf »

Third-hand information, but here's who I am told is the SEC contact (This person is verifiable on Google as an SEC employee):

Sara Kalin
Senior Counsel
323 965 3860

All information/questions should go to la4407@sec.gov. (This email has been setup for this case specifically). Sounds like if you have any information, she would be the person to contact.

Also third-hand information, but my boss heard that someone was able to track down where their ATMs were supposed to be, but when they called the store locations, the ATMs were owned by a company called MobileMoney, not NASI.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by Tednewsom »

investor wrote:To Ted Newsom............I still wonder what is this all to you? Could it be unrequited love? I think you need to get a life and stay out of other peoples business.
Oh, it could be. Or, like the time I saved your ass by doing due diligence on Mr. Lawsuit, it could simply be me being concerned about someone getting ripped off by a charming, fast-talking crook.

If she loses her house, Frances-- you will be responsible. She trusted you.

Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to introduce "investor," also known as Ms. Frances McCafferty, the chief sales person for NAS for approximately the last ten years. Hey, maybe even 15. As I have said several times (without naming her), I think Frances is personally smart, honest and trustworthy. However, I think these recent developments show her to be yet another victim of a couple of fast-talking con men. And as I have also said repeatedly, a good con artist loves using smart and honest people as a shield.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by worried »

What victims of NASI REALLY need to understand, especially those that have been involved for more than 5 years and have profited: whether you know it or not, you are victimizing people just as much as Joel/Ed. People like 'investor' who make it their BUSINESS to perpetrate this scam are an order of magnitude worse, and what's worse, people like 'investor' are going to find that it doesn't matter if they actually knew or not because that ignorance can be feigned, and the authorities are SO used to being told "I'm innocent". ... "investor": if you honestly didn't know that you were helping to perpetrate this scam, then you are even more of a victim because I think you're going to be treated like a criminal in this. YOU should be even more angry at Joel/Ed than other people.

I can't believe some people ('10 yr investor') actually think that they're going to get paid off by some orderly selling off of thousands of non-existent ATMs (or ATMs that may exist but are not owned by anybody affiliated with this criminal enterprise). You actually think it's no big deal to be selling unregistered securities illegally? You are so misguided, brainwashed even. Well, the truth will become apparent to you sooner or later.

You all need to take to heart that you have taken part in a massive victimization scheme, you're all just in various stages of that scheme yourself.

I know for a fact that the FBI is also involved in this and I'm pretty sure they play even harder ball than the SEC, and they DEFINITELY don't waste time on stuff like this if it doesn't rival the many other DEADLY SERIOUS things they deal with on a daily basis.

The thing is, massive scams like this, as well as massive cash counterfeiting, etc., are threats to the national economy and therefore security. They do NOT play around when it comes to stuff like this.

This is all a big tragedy really. But the more you deny, fight, hide, the worse it will be.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by Lost Income »

Please can you advise how you know that the FBI is also currently involved in evaluating NAS?
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by worried »

I posted earlier how to contact both the SEC and the FBI at the same sites where I contacted them. I also posted earlier that I have been subsequently contacted by both.

Do some searching and reading on big Ponzi schemes. Getting a 'Cease and Desist' from the SEC is just one small part. They take this stuff seriously.... Look at the viewcount of this discussion topic, most notably the rate at which it's now growing. There are a LOT of people involved in this. There are people who have just been trolling time-share seminars, etc., looking for people (especially elderly) to pitch the amazing 'secret' NASI deal to, why? just to spread the sunshine? not hardly, they do it for the recruiting commission$. There are lots of Ponzi schemes out there, there are LOTS of crimes going on out there. Why would the SEC and FBI all of a sudden put this at the top of their list? Because of the size of it.

Please, all of you, spend your time and energy wisely. Help yourself, talk to the authorities, help them help you. If you're still not convinced, go ahead and work on repossessing your ATM's, hell, why not try to get the SEC to help you with that? If that experience doesn't convince you, well, nothing will, and you're never going to learn the lesson from this and you'll probably just continue going on through life making the same mistakes over and over. You'll be a perpetual victim like so many other people out there.
If you have to "Believe" something, that means you can't prove that it's true... please, for your own sake, speak and act accordingly...