ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Stock and Bond Fraud, including Boiler Rooms / Pump and Dump Schemes, Mutual Fund & Hedge Fund Fraud, FOREX scams, plus Churning, Private Placements, Venture and Bridge Funding, IPOs, Viaticals Fraud, HYIP and Prime Bank scams, MTNs, Historical Notes, Recovery Schemes, etc. Includes the Jim Norman Project and the Michael Dotson Project and similar HYIP scams.
SomeYuppie

Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby SomeYuppie » Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:20 am

If that's what they're telling you, it's an outright lie. Every three months for the past year they've been soliciting for new "partners" and pushing old "partners" to scoop up another of those trusty machines. Well, wait, perhaps it's not a lie from them, maybe you are right, they're truly out of machines and selling non-machines to all the new "partners." That would be right in line with the M.O. of the dozen other ATM leaseback companies which have been popped by the SEC or the local Attorneys General: selling phantom "securities."

The problem I have with most of your posts is that there's just too much speculation. Have your partners ever tried to buy 30 machines at once and been told there's only 6 left and will ONLY accept money for the six and not the thirty requested? Happened to me and two other people I know. Seems weird to me if he was running a fabricated business.

They sent some (but from your comment, apparently not ALL) "partners" a notification a year or year and a half ago, that they've simply run out of locations to place more ATMs and they were not going to be selling any more. The market is saturated, and that's that, game over. Three months later, they miraculously got a new contract with a hotel chain-- ta-daa! The world just got brighter again for the ATM lease back business!

Now... if they're lying to you about being "out of machines"-- and they are -- what else are they lying about?


Per you they must be lying.... piece the dates and events together and maybe you will be on to something.

Uhhh... no. The price to some "partners" is still $19,000 -- for the same service and terms. And I have it directly from an honest financial counselor (yes, she's legit; I did my DD on her before believing a word she told me) that the SAME things are sold in her neck of the words, to upscale "partners" for a big chunk MORE than $20,000. She remembered how much she paid for it very clearly-- before she talked directly with the Big Cheese and said, "This thing doesn't add up, I want my money back."

Please understand, I'm not calling you a prevaricator. I think you're being accurate and truthful when you say you have always paid +/-$12,000 per unit. I'm equally certain that those who originally paid $19,000 are told (and are confident) that's what every other "partner" has always paid. And I'd bet those who pay $28,000 each are always told everyone else shells out the same amount of dough.


Maybe your advisor made an honest mistake. Try calling NAS directly and get the terms straight from the horses mouth. Hang up when you hear what you want.

ATM fees are $4.00, of which the owner gets 50 cents. Not some 50/50 thing.


Interesting. This is not what was represented (verbally) to me, and not what the company outlined in their SEC license application. But it may well be true. It's a wacky world.

Just call and find out yourself. Now you've shown me you have second hand info from your friend and from a counselor. Try calling directly.

As pointed out above by people hipper and wiser than me, the idea of any investment resulting in a "guaranteed 20%" return is -- shall we say?-- "fanciful." And please, please think about this with a clear head: if you're told your particular ATM didn't make its minimum in a given month, but you still get your "guaranteed" payment, WHERE IS THAT MONEY COMING FROM? And there is no other answer: it's obviously coming from somewhere else. Where?
After the year, if its below 20% you get the difference. As I've stated I know one person who did less than 20% and it was for 1 year after 9/11. The one on this thread who said if a check was ever lower than $200 they would get a new one was posting inaccurate information.

But, uhhh... what might make you even entertain that idea? I mean... gee... what an odd, suspicious idea that is. Hmmm and Double Hmmm. Oh, not that you're wrong to consider it... oh-h-h-h-h, no...

Like you, the biggest red flag to me is the guaranteed 20% deal. But since the machines I have are pretty much doing 30% I kind of rest easier at night because something must be right. Can't see NAS growing so much where they wouldn't have run out of money, especially after the financial crisis, with the returns myself and everyone I know have been getting unless it was legitimate.

Why do you use the adjective "supposedly"? :

Simple. I asked, he said he gets different models ranging from 6000-8000 and that's what he told me. I don't see the invoices he receives so I suppose I should use the word "supposedly" when I relay that sort of information. :wink:

Actually, no: the duck comment did make me smile, but it affected my opinion not one bit. This thing smelled like week-old fish from the first moment it was pitched at me. It made no simple, mathematical sense. I still hope I'm wrong because my dear friend has been pushed AGAIN to buy another of these things-- at the usual $19,000, someyuppy, not your standard bargain rate of $12,000 -- and I guess despite what they told you, they were somehow able to find some more machines. I fear when the thing collapses, she will be totally, utterly wiped out. I do not want this to be true, but so far, I've seen little to change my mind. [/quote]

Its been 2+ years. Has your friend recouped most of her investment already?
Last edited by SomeYuppie on Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

SomeYuppie

Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby SomeYuppie » Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:24 am

littleroundman wrote:The Supreme Court ruled that Howey was offering an "investment contract" as defined by the Securities Act of 1933. As a part of this ruling, the Supreme Court developed a test to see whether an opportunity constitutes an "investment contract." This test was called the "Howey Test."

An investment contract under the Howey Test was defined as follows:

1. an investment of money due to

2. an expectation of profits arising from

3. a common enterprise

4. which depends solely on the efforts of a promoter or third party

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/3509783



Read the article and researched it a bit. I may be dumb, but it seems this applies only to land/real estate. Any clarification would be great.

SomeYuppie

Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby SomeYuppie » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:04 am

JamesVincent wrote:Since you did seem to miss the whole point of this thread I'll explain it in a nutshell. It may very well be a semi-legit or legit company but no one can explain why it would require that kind of money to get in. Like I said before, I don't believe for a second that they pay the kind of prices they claim to. I also don't believe that they require as much up front capital as they say they do. And with people like that BeverlyHills dude posting, it looks more like a load of manure. There is no reason you could not have a machine setup and in place for more then $7k for a good machine, $5k for a normal machine, and that is the biggest detraction I have seen. It may very well be that the company is legit and you do get a return out of it but if they're shafting you from the get go and having kinda iffy service, which BeverlyHills dude mentioned, and have no real reason for the incoming shaft I would be hesitant. If someone paid you $6k extra I think you could figure out a way to slip them a Ben Franklin extra here and there. YMMV.


FYI the point of this thread is that the OP doesn't think ATM leasebacks are legitimate and wanted insight on NAS because OP knows someone who has money tied up with them. Op is also the most frequent poster on this thread and has been vocal thinking it is illegitimate.

I find it somewhat funny that you're arguing the investor is getting screwed and should possibly be getting better returns while Ted is arguing that the returns are too high for it to not be something of a ponzi scheme.

For 12000 you get:
Cashflow of 2400 a year minimum
A machine that costs 6000-8000 (per Joel)
Freight and installation from some factory in Ohio to the contracted location
Option to return the machine back to NAS for the full 12000 no questions asked
NAS assuming all liability for the machines
NAS servicing the machines for you
NAS contracting with businesses to place the machines at
NAS moving your machine if it doesn't perform well enough

Or you can do it yourself, save 4000-6000 per machine and reap a higher percentage of the ATM fees. I'm lazy so I'll just pay the premium.

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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby webhick » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:07 am

Tednewsom wrote:I'll defer to my Smarters and Betters here on this one, but I'll offer a parallel. What does it matter if Chris Christie ::snip::


In the future, please refrain from bringing politics into a thread. That's how things get real ugly, real quick.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby Tednewsom » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:52 pm

Ted is arguing that the returns are too high for it to not be something of a ponzi scheme.


This was a point brought up not by me but by another poster more sophisticated in the Ins and Outs of investment returns. I've only mentioned it again because it's an obvious clue.

Promising (or implying in a verbal sales pitch) that you'll get a guaranteed return of 20% per year -- on anything -- is well-nigh impossible. It's like... oh... guaranteeing a gizmo stuck in your cigarette lighter will increase your gas mileage 25%.

Please consider this. If the scheme was so brilliant and a guaranteed money-maker... why do the principals avoid oversight? Two separate people who posted here-- professionals, money advisors -- offered to corral more investors than the company could ever want, in exchange for the company opening the books for due diligence and supplying a few real numbers. Not a word from the company. Not a peep.

If it's such a can't-lose proposition, why limit your pitches to one-on-one sales talks, and only "friends-of-friends" recommendations? (The answer, to me anyway, is obvious. You can then skirt SEC rules about "public offerings," because you're not dealing with more than 15 (or 25? 30? Whatever the limit is now.) potential investors at the same time.)

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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby Tednewsom » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:58 pm

A machine that costs 6000-8000 (per Joel)


This is the same guy who, when told by a trusted and naïve hustler of these devices that there was an article on Reuters praising the company, said to her, "Wow! An article! That's great! I didn't know anyone was going to write about the company!"

When in fact the "article" was a paid advertisement from the company, signed by him, with his contact info at the bottom and a disclaimer at the top: "This is a paid advertisement. Reuters does not endorse the information or vouch for its authenticity."

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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby Tednewsom » Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:09 pm

"Its been 2+ years. Has your friend recouped most of her investment already?"


She's been in this thing for nearly ten years.* She's made her money back on the first one, maybe even the second. But because it's such a "good deal," and because her trusted friend keeps coming after her previous customers to suggest they buy more while the gittin' is good, she invariably goes for another one when she can.

At +/- $300 per month, that's $3600 per year. You don't even get back up to zero for over 5 years. Unless, of course, you're one of the lucky ones who got the special bargain rate of $12,000 per unit.

* Please, let's not play the "See? No scam could continue that long!" card. Two words to that one, and the second word is "Madoff."

SomeYuppie

Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby SomeYuppie » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:22 pm

Tednewsom wrote:Promising (or implying in a verbal sales pitch) that you'll get a guaranteed return of 20% per year -- on anything -- is well-nigh impossible.


The rich dude who I work for has investments that have had a ROE in the thousands, as well as some that seem to do 50% each and every year since existence.

An average of 400 transactions a month gets you to the 20%. If he has contracts with high volume places and even moves underperforming machines to higher performing places, and has a solid track record of doing so, I think that guarantee is very possible.

Please consider this. If the scheme was so brilliant and a guaranteed money-maker... why do the principals avoid oversight? Two separate people who posted here-- professionals, money advisors -- offered to corral more investors than the company could ever want, in exchange for the company opening the books for due diligence and supplying a few real numbers. Not a word from the company. Not a peep.


Those people could have, I don't know, lied on the internet. Maybe they dialed the wrong number so their calls weren't returned? Again, if it was a Ponzi scheme, why wouldn't they fudge the numbers and get as much investment money as possible?

If it's such a can't-lose proposition, why limit your pitches to one-on-one sales talks, and only "friends-of-friends" recommendations? (The answer, to me anyway, is obvious. You can then skirt SEC rules about "public offerings," because you're not dealing with more than 15 (or 25? 30? Whatever the limit is now.) potential investors at the same time.)


I know people who turn down business all the time because they don't want to put up with things. Small business owner. If they don't feel like being regulated by the SEC, why is that a red flag to you? If I were in their shoes I'd probably do the same.

SomeYuppie

Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby SomeYuppie » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:24 pm

Tednewsom wrote:
A machine that costs 6000-8000 (per Joel)


This is the same guy who, when told by a trusted and naïve hustler of these devices that there was an article on Reuters praising the company, said to her, "Wow! An article! That's great! I didn't know anyone was going to write about the company!"

When in fact the "article" was a paid advertisement from the company, signed by him, with his contact info at the bottom and a disclaimer at the top: "This is a paid advertisement. Reuters does not endorse the information or vouch for its authenticity."


So Joel didn't know what the "hustler" was talking about? That's what I get from this post.

SomeYuppie

Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby SomeYuppie » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:31 pm

Tednewsom wrote:
She's been in this thing for nearly ten years.* She's made her money back on the first one, maybe even the second. But because it's such a "good deal," and because her trusted friend keeps coming after her previous customers to suggest they buy more while the gittin' is good, she invariably goes for another one when she can.

At +/- $300 per month, that's $3600 per year. You don't even get back up to zero for over 5 years. Unless, of course, you're one of the lucky ones who got the special bargain rate of $12,000 per unit.

* Please, let's not play the "See? No scam could continue that long!" card. Two words to that one, and the second word is "Madoff."


Since they are not taking all the cash they can get their hands on, and didn't run out of cash during the financial crisis, what are these guys doing that not even Madoff couldn't do?

And please, what's this trusted friend and previous customers stuff? Are you talking about NAS or Gillis? It sounds like there's an unrelated party who is buying from NAS and charging their own markup. Have you called NAS directly yet? Did you get an answer for yourself?

Red Flag

Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby Red Flag » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:50 pm

Hello everyone,

I have read most of the postings here.

Please forgive me if I am mentioning something that already was posted but my memory may not be servicing me at the moment...

I don't recall anyone mentioning the fact, that, just because people are making or supposedly making money, profits, payments or whatever you want to call it, does not mean that the investment they are in (using investment for a lack of a better word- but you know what i mean)...it does not mean that it is a fraud, a scheme, a scam, etc.

Yes, lots of people lost significant amounts of cash investments and profits with Bernard Madoff, but there are also a significant amount of people who benefited and made significant financial gains from Madoff too!

One of these individuals was named Jeffery Picower, whom was found dead in his Palm Beach Home's swimming pool. (suicide? murder?)

He was reported or alleged to have made about $7 billion from Madoff's Ponzi scheme...about 30 times more what Madoff did.

Some investigators consider Picower to have been the actual mastermind behind the Madoff Scam, or possibly a partner in this disgusting crime. Hard to say now obviously until further investigation can reveal the truth...

But the point is, he made tons of money, and there are more who did that could be in on it or not in on it...perhaps that is why the SEC took 10 years (thanks to Harry Markopolos never giving up), 10 years to act on Harry's request to investigate Madoff. Harry said it took him a few minutes to figure out that Madoff was operating a Ponzi scheme...and then 10 years later, the rest is a sad and pathetic history of fraud...

I suspect the SEC had knowledge of what was going on but there was too many powerful and influential people involved (Mafia?) that they didn't have the courage to stop Madoff until the 2008 downturn in the economy help to quell investment money from flowing...

...if it wasn't for the 2008 economic downturn, Madoff most likely would have been able to continue with bringing in more money...like he said, he ran out of money cause of the downturn...

Anyways, just wanted to bring up the point that people are making money on what i think is a "Lease Back Scheme", which in fact is the number one scheme, fraud, scam that takes place...there is tons of information about this scheme on the internet...it is well known...

And yes, there are extremely intelligent people that fall for schemes all the time...it is another thing for an intelligent person to admit they were wrong or was duped as the man-made phenomenon of the so-called "EGO" prevents one self from being honest with themselves...causes many problems in life...(ie: wars, politics, religion, etc)

"Markets remember, people forget"

littleroundman

Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby littleroundman » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:01 am

SomeYuppie wrote:Read the article and researched it a bit. I may be dumb, but it seems this applies only to land/real estate. Any clarification would be great.


Might I suggest you do a quick Google using the terms: "howey test securities"

You will quickly discover the Howey case was the lead case which lead to the formulation of the "Howey Test" and while it related to real estate, the definition is now used to define whether or not an investment falls under control of the Securities Laws

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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby Arthur Rubin » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:33 am

littleroundman wrote:
Tednewsom wrote:

[b]Anyone here want to give someyuppy an investor's primer with a definition of "securities" stuck somewhere in the middle? Someyuppy, I fear that you don't know what securities are, which I didn't (and didn't care about) until I started looking into this mess.
[/b]


The Supreme Court ruled that Howey was offering an "investment contract" as defined by the Securities Act of 1933. As a part of this ruling, the Supreme Court developed a test to see whether an opportunity constitutes an "investment contract." This test was called the "Howey Test."

An investment contract under the Howey Test was defined as follows:

1. an investment of money due to

2. an expectation of profits arising from

3. a common enterprise

4. which depends solely on the efforts of a promoter or third party

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/3509783



The article does seem to say it's only applies to shares in real estate, and the definition of "a common enterprise" strikes me as requiring some work. The Supreme Court decision seems to be assuming that investors were offered particular parcels of land, but that the payout was fixed per acreage, or dependent on the production of the entire group of parcels, not the production of an individual parcel.

The fact that Howie owned the entire orchard property and subdivided it seems also to be relied upon in the decision. Here, allegedly, each ATM is a separate investment, not necessarily obtained by the principal until after purchased by the investor.

I'm not convinced that a rational application of existing law would result in a decision that the principal is marketing an unregistered security. Of course, rationality and law often have little to do with each other.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby Tednewsom » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:58 am

I'm not convinced that a rational application of existing law would result in a decision that the principal is marketing an unregistered security. Of course, rationality and law often have little to do with each other.


Oh, I dunno, Arthur. In fact, I'm convinced of the reverse. From a USSC decision:

"[definition of the term "securities] is not limited to instruments traded at securities exchanges and over-the-counter markets, but extends to uncommon and irregular instruments."


In as much as there have been a boatload of major legal actions by both the SEC and state Attorneys General against other ATM leaseback schemes (which, no slur intended to any honest people this might offend, operate in precisely the same way), I'd say there are those who would consider these "uncommon or irregular instruments" as securities.

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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby Tednewsom » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:05 am

And please, what's this trusted friend and previous customers stuff? Are you talking about NAS or Gillis? It sounds like there's an unrelated party who is buying from NAS and charging their own markup.


Nope, not "unrelated." Someone who believes in the boys absolutely, gets furious when I ask straightforward logical questions, and has been avidly selling directly for them for ten years. On the payroll.

"Previous customers" -- sorry if that sounds obscure. By "previous customers" I mean "previous customers," people who have already bought one or more machines and are therefore enthused about another one.

If they don't feel like being regulated by the SEC, why is that a red flag to you?


Excellent question, and there is an obvious answer. If-- and I've always given this the benefit of doubt with IF -- if I was running a well-oiled and elaborate con, I would not want the visibility, I would not want anyone looking too carefully, and I certainly don't want strangers with professional experience asking pertinent questions. I would make sure we were under the radar.

I had a friend who had a thriving loan-shark business for ten years. I'm not using aphorisms; he was a loan shark, with a huge house-sized enforcer. He probably could have made even more money if he had taken out billboards and put his service on bus stop benches... but he thought it might be better not to announce to the authorities that he was regularly committing criminal acts, and relied on word-of-mouth. People are funny that way.

Maybe your advisor made an honest mistake. Try calling NAS directly and get the terms straight from the horses mouth. Hang up when you hear what you want.


I have talked to a half-dozen people who either have bought into it, or had been pitched (by "friends," invariably) and ultimately decided against it. Their $19,000 purchase figure has always been consistent.

The one sophisticated investment counselor I spoke with certainly knew how much she herself paid out-- and how much her clients were paying out. And she dealt directly with the principal. Are you saying someone who deals in investments and figures every day somehow misremembered "$28,000" for "$12,000"?

Have you called NAS directly yet? Did you get an answer for yourself?


I've considered dropping in on them several times. I may; there's no urgency. But when I do, he won't know it's me.

I actually did swing by their old office once, three or four years ago. Nice, quiet little neighborhood, business district but semi-residential-- i.e., a very low-crime area. Their office was the only one room in the building with a spyhole in the door. That amused me, and, to this former investigator, spoke volumes.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby Tednewsom » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:22 am

Red Flag wrote:Anyways, just wanted to bring up the point that people are making money on what i think is a "Lease Back Scheme", which in fact is the number one scheme, fraud, scam that takes place[emphasis mine]...there is tons of information about this scheme on the internet...it is well known...

And yes, there are extremely intelligent people that fall for schemes all the time...it is another thing for an intelligent person to admit they were wrong or was duped as the man-made phenomenon of the so-called "EGO" prevents one self from being honest with themselves...causes many problems in life...(ie: wars, politics, religion, etc)


Thanks, redflag.

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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby SomeYuppie » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:23 am

Tednewsom wrote:Nope, not "unrelated." Someone who believes in the boys absolutely, gets furious when I ask straightforward logical questions, and has been avidly selling directly for them for ten years. On the payroll.


I call BS. What's this person's name?

Excellent question, and there is an obvious answer.


Your answer didn't really address the question. If SEC oversight isn't required, why bother?

I have talked to a half-dozen people who either have bought into it, or had been pitched (by "friends," invariably) and ultimately decided against it. Their $19,000 purchase figure has always been consistent.


The purchase figure is from NAS directly or a third party? Not one person called NAS to get one directly? I'm thinking someone is playing an arbitrage game with your friends.

The one sophisticated investment counselor I spoke with certainly knew how much she herself paid out-- and how much her clients were paying out. And she dealt directly with the principal. Are you saying someone who deals in investments and figures every day somehow misremembered "$28,000" for "$12,000"?


Right above you say its been consistently 19k, but why is it 28k now? In a prior post you were mentioning other numbers.

I've considered dropping in on them several times. I may; there's no urgency. But when I do, he won't know it's me.


Just settle it and show up or call.

Red Flag

Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby Red Flag » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:54 am

Well, one thing I believe will be a certainty...the truth will reveal itself in due time. It always does...

We will all find out if this "Lease-back ATM" is a fraud, scheme or scam or not...

...when?

...who knows...

10-4...over and out.

:violin: :shock:

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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby JamesVincent » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:02 am

SomeYuppie wrote:FYI the point of this thread is that the OP doesn't think ATM leasebacks are legitimate and wanted insight on NAS because OP knows someone who has money tied up with them. Op is also the most frequent poster on this thread and has been vocal thinking it is illegitimate.

I find it somewhat funny that you're arguing the investor is getting screwed and should possibly be getting better returns while Ted is arguing that the returns are too high for it to not be something of a ponzi scheme.

My point was the investor gets shafted from the get go and for no good reason. Ted's point is that guaranteeing a return that high is usually a sign of a ponzi. I think both points apply well to the situation being discussed.

For 12000 you get:
Cashflow of 2400 a year minimum
A machine that costs 6000-8000 (per Joel)
Freight and installation from some factory in Ohio to the contracted location
Which company?
Option to return the machine back to NAS for the full 12000 no questions asked
NAS assuming all liability for the machines
NAS servicing the machines for you
NAS contracting with businesses to place the machines at
NAS moving your machine if it doesn't perform well enough

Or you can do it yourself, save 4000-6000 per machine and reap a higher percentage of the ATM fees. I'm lazy so I'll just pay the premium.


We already discussed the cost of the machines, setup and whatnot, and it should not be anywhere near that high. If you wanted to you could buy them on your own, contract with a service company, and make quite a bit more and still never actually service your own machine. You're making, what 13% off of a transaction? Which, again, is not what's been stated by other posters claiming to be involved. Just like several others have stated different numbers for the initial investment, others have stated different returns.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Postby JamesVincent » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:40 am

SomeYuppie wrote:In the US justice system its typically on the accuser.

Typically, not always.

Technically they have all rights of ownership and they assume all liability if it gets damage, stolen etc. HOWEVER per the operating agreement, if you are unhappy with your investment you may return the machine for the full amount you purchased it for. I could theoretically call up tomorrow and get 100% of my initial investment on some or all of my machines, AND keep whatever money they gave me each month.

Not what I asked. Is it licensed to you or them? If something happens and the fees don't get paid, who is responsible? If something happens within the company, are you totally shafted or do you at least have enough of a claim against the machine itself to recoup some of your money?


Owner would be me, you can call me a partner/investor/victim whatever. I get 50 cents per txn and so does every one I know in this. In fact Gillis doesn't even know that I know others who own ATMs so its not like he fixed it so I'm getting the same deal. When I first started buying ATMs the txn fee was 3.50 and I want to say in the last year it was bumped up to 4.00 or 3.95. Same difference. I am getting the same 50 cents so I didn't get a boost in my payout despite a jump in fees.
I don't think 3.50 is high at least for fees charged in my area. 4.00 is high but I've seen fees up to 5.00. Of course, those aren't NAS ATMs.

Fees average in this area, where I live now, around $2.50. Plenty of $2 machine around and a few $3 ones around. Wasn't much different when I lived in Maryland, maybe a few more $3 machines. Only time you saw a $4 machine was either in a liquor store or a bar. Like I said before drunks like to spend money. And if they upped the fee, why didn't they up your cut?

Basically I get my cut, banks get their cut, processor gets a cut, owner of the ATM's location gets a cut, and NAS gets the rest. I am fine with this set up because I assume virtually no risks (unless it is a ponzi scheme) and get like 30% annual returns. I've long since recouped my investment.

We had this discussion before with BeverlyHills whatever. What and why are the locations getting getting part of your till? What is the agreement with them?


Recall I said I know several people who have the same investment and I never let Gillis know? All of them bought at 12000 except for one guy who had them since the 90s and bought his old ones for 11000. Hence why I don't think those who quoted other amounts are legitimate posters.

Just because YOU don't know, doesn't mean it's false. Would not be the first time something like that happened in a business.

I said related party, not relationship. Processor facilitates the transactions between ATM and bank. This is something I have personal experience with. I brought up related parties because I researched the processor to make sure that they weren't owned by Gillis or NAS.

Talking about the same thing in different ways. I asked if it was the credit issuer since they should, and I would think have to be, a separate company. But they are still in a business relationship with NAS. I was hoping you had a third party audit, which I think a couple of others had also wanted.

I thought I made it clear that its 20% of the full 12,000 per machine. Buy 100 machines and they are all guaranteed 20% annual returns on that full 1,200,000. i get it, you want bulk discounts. I never asked so i cant speak about it. No one I know has had a year below 20% except for the one who was in this from the 90s. After 9/11 he hit 18% for the year and actually got compensated at the end of the year to hit his 20%.

Where did the money come from to compensate him? See, that's one of the things that has been asked about. If a machine doesn't perform as advertised and someone gets compensated, where does the money come from? Do they take the money from the new people coming in to pay off the ones that are performing poorly?


Believe what you want. That's my side of it all. I have more information so ask away.


Did I? Or was I just responding generally since there's been many posters over the past 2+ years. I'll respond to you directly just as I'm doing now. Go ahead and repost your concerns and maybe I can provide an answer.

Some of them you have already answered to a point. One of the biggest problems so far has been completely contradicting posts from supposed "investors". Different fees, different initial, different times, etc. So you can see why people here are kinda hesitant about accepting "facts".

Still don't know why he wouldn't take money or limit my purchases if it was a ponzi scheme.

Make it last longer. One of the things that always destroys a good ponzi in the end is greed. If you can control that greed and trickle it over years instead of a great burst of money, then you can make more in the long run.

You'd think but I've seen stupid decisions make millions anyways. I don't doubt Gillis made a half million dollar investment but in something stupid, but strangely enough I just don't care.

My friend would be the first to tell you that for every thing he did right, he did 20 wrong. Investing can be like that and, as any true entrepreneur will tell you, so is business. However, still does not look good to an outsider.


But it doesn't mean its not legit.

Circle arguments are circles :P

Yay I'm king of the brainwashed! :lol:

Not even close. Have you ever heard of Cracking the Code?
"Just knowing we're in the same genus makes me embarrassed to call myself Homo." Professor Farnsworth


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