Are the Banks/government to blame for the rise in sites like GOODF

[letissier14]

There's plenty of blame to throw around but none of it will help those that fail to help themselves.

I agree with this. My ex-husband and I started out in a rented room with shared kitchen and bathroom while we saved a deposit for a house. We bought a big, run down Victorian semi for £15k with a £3k deposit (in 1985) and all we had was a cooker, a fridge, a dining table, two dining chairs and a bed - all of which we bought second hand for pennies. No curtains or sofa or TV, we saved up for all of those while we did the house up. Nowadays many young couples want to start out in new-build houses with all the latest gadgets and brand new furniture, and are willing to take on crazy amounts of debt to fund this aspirational lifestyle.

Unfortunately my ex stopped being financially responsible during our marriage and got us into huge debt that he is still in today, and some of which I ended up with after the divorce, but I have almost entirely repaid my portion by scaling everything back, despite having to give up work four years ago through ill-health.

On the Moneysavingexpert debt-free board, the first thing the regulars advise for people in debt is to slash their outgoings. Change to a cheap PAYG phone, cancel the Sky tv subscription, shop in the discount supermarkets etc, cancel magazine subscriptions and other extras. Sell what you don't need. Apply for benefits if you are eligible. Then contact the lenders and the debt charities (which should be much better funded), pay priority debts (mortgage/rent, council tax, utilities, food) and with help from the debt charities divide what is left among the debts using snowballing to get rid of the highest interest rates first. If their credit rating is not yet damaged, get as much debt as possible onto low rate deals. But never, ever take out more debt to 'solve' the problem.

Yes, some lenders did make irresponsible loans, and some borrowers took out irresponsible borrowing. But nobody forced either of them to do it (perhaps other than those vulnerable by reason of mental incapacity), and it has to be repaid no matter how unfair it seems compared with tax avoiders and recipients of bail-outs.

I think financial responsibility, including how to live within one's means and the true cost of debt, ought to be taught as part of PHSE/citizenship classes in school as well as it being taught by parents/guardians to their children.[/quote]


Plenty of good advice there but not all of it is reality....

Yes, go on a PAYG phone contract if possible, cancel tv subscriptions etc etc, but the only trouble is that some of these are on a contract and to cancel them will result in full subscriptions becoming payable instantly. Miss a few payments and the likely hood is that you will get a default notice served on you which will effect your credit rating for a period of 6 years.

Probably a good job you wont be able to get future credit, but unfortunately in this day and age, credit checks are often used for private renting (with the lack of council housing this is sometimes the only way people can get a house) and also for job applications, which could be the difference in getting that job or not.

I agree that nobody forced anyone to take out a loan but people who are on the lowest income, who are living on the breadline and having been sanctioned by the job centre, for the most pathetic of reasons and have had their benefit stopped, often feel they having nothing to lose, and when a company like Wonga come along and throw money at them without any credit checks, they are obviously going to take the money. And no amount of preaching by people who have never been in that position is going to help them.

Being in such a dire situation is life changing and also life threatening. It is easy to think of life is just black and white when you have never been in that position, but not everyone in debt has a smartphone or a big tv, many of these people go without food so that their children can eat.

I have to say that some of the replies on here lately disgust me. You sit on here preaching about what's right and what's wrong with people and being patronising and obnoxious, when the fact remains the majority of people in debt never wanted to be in that position and are in a hole and can't see a way out. Stop judging everyone in debt by the small minority who don't want to pay and want everything free.

This isn't a problem that is going to go away and more people are in debt then ever before. Food banks are on the rise, jobs are low paid with zero contract hours, there is a lack of council housing and people who can't afford their council tax are being punished with more fees by bailiffs.

The gap between the rich and poor is widening all the time, so instead of sitting on here preaching how perfect you are, why don't you get your hands dirty and start trying to help people who are in genuine need.

I personally give up at least 25 hours a week of my time for free to help people in need.

I apologise if I have upset any one, but I felt it needed to be said.

[Hyrion]

BTW, on the subject of parents teaching their kids financial responsibility, they can only teach that if they have the experience themselves to pass on, my mum and dad were war babies, my mum never had a credit card until she was 55, and my dad still doesn't have one at 74

• They didn't use cheques so never experienced the responsibility of ensuring there was money in the bank to cover the value on the check.

• They didn't put cash into the cookie jar to save for a rainy day.

• They didn't pay taxes - somenoe else handled that for them.

• They didn't collect their wage - someone else did that for them and paid the rent/mortgage. The same person also ensured food in the fridge.

The point being: I accept that your parents didn't have the experience with credit cards. But credit cards alone do not make up the total sum of financial experience. Are you suggesting your parents were devoid of all financial experience so could not teach you anything?

Somehow I don't believe that. I find it really hard to believe that neither of your parents were involved in at least some of the household finances.

It's possible they never had a loan. Never took out a house loan of any kind - choosing to either pay rent their entire lives or save the money till they had the full amount to buy the house outright. It's also possible they never used cheques or didn't ever run into a situation where they'd pay an NSF service charge. So it's possible they handled their finances in such a way that they never ran into the consequences of failing to ensure a debt was paid. But even that would be good instruction to you about the responsibilities of ensuring you earned your way.

As you say:

Generally people bahave by example

So are you really going to claim neither of your parents were involved in your household finances in any way so neither could teach you anything about financial responsibility even through positive example?

[FatGambit]

Actually if you're intent on making repayments to unsecured creditors, you should not 'snowball' payments to the higher interest ones, all unsecured creditors should be dealt with equally on a pro-rata basis, they won't like it, but it'll help if one of those creditors later takes you to court, as the judge will likely award no more installment amounts than the pro-rata amount already paid.

There is a Judge at our local Court who likes to order debtors to pay £1 a month, and has done so on debt of over £100k, to in effect punish the creditor for wasting the courts time when a suitable repayment schedule was already in place.

[letissier14]

As for the little weasel with the user name wanglepin, who has constantly sniped at me since the day I joined here, if you have something to say, lets be open about it and don't be sending me private messages, such as the following

Indeed, my snide remarks, as you say,are for the simple fact you, a moderator! stood by and watched bare faced liars perpetuate lie after lie without once challenging them. Indeed, you stood on the sidelines while others ran the gauntlet in attempting to expose these liars and their lies, and didn't raise a word in their defence or against said proven liar/s and this was well before you decided to leave goodf. .

I've already explained my position of being a MOD on goodf many times and the reason I stayed on there was to help the genuine people who were asking me for help and advice. I've already stated that I didn't believe in all the fmotl nonsense.

Yes I could have stood up and said something which would no doubt have got me removed from the site and with that happening, how many people would I have helped then????

You don't have a fucking clue what went on behind the scenes and the amount of private messages I had sent people saying "Look, ignore what so and so told you, it simply doesn't work" etc and gave them links or explained myself what would help....

You have no idea how many times I spoke to Jon Witterick about things I was unhappy about. So before opening that disgusting mouth of your, I suggest you get the facts beforehand.

Reading your posts just makes me realise what a fucking horrible human being you are, one that can't see past their own nasty vindictive selfish actions and your hatred for Ceylon

Tell me.... how many have you helped get out of debt? or is it your hobby just to abuse and put down genuine people like me who really want to help others??

In future just stay off my posts, I don't need to be answering to a no mark like you

[FatGambit]

BTW, on the subject of parents teaching their kids financial responsibility, they can only teach that if they have the experience themselves to pass on, my mum and dad were war babies, my mum never had a credit card until she was 55, and my dad still doesn't have one at 74

• They didn't use cheques so never experienced the responsibility of ensuring there was money in the bank to cover the value on the check.

• They didn't put cash into the cookie jar to save for a rainy day.

• They didn't pay taxes - somenoe else handled that for them.

• They didn't collect their wage - someone else did that for them and paid the rent/mortgage. The same person also ensured food in the fridge.

The point being: I accept that your parents didn't have the experience with credit cards. But credit cards alone do not make up the total sum of financial experience. Are you suggesting your parents were devoid of all financial experience so could not teach you anything?

Somehow I don't believe that. I find it really hard to believe that neither of your parents were involved in at least some of the household finances.

It's possible they never had a loan. Never took out a house loan of any kind - choosing to either pay rent their entire lives or save the money till they had the full amount to buy the house outright. It's also possible they never used cheques or didn't ever run into a situation where they'd pay an NSF service charge. So it's possible they handled their finances in such a way that they never ran into the consequences of failing to ensure a debt was paid. But even that would be good instruction to you about the responsibilities of ensuring you earned your way.

As you say:

Generally people bahave by example

So are you really going to claim neither of your parents were involved in your household finances in any way so neither could teach you anything about financial responsibility even through positive example?

And there's that condescending attitude again prevelant through the thread.

My parents taught me to live within my means, which was more than school ever taught me, however they didn't experience credit themselves or how it worked.

They never took out loans, never used a cheque book, they never had a mortgage, my dad never had a mobile phone until after my mum died and he only got the internet 3 years ago, put simply, until very recently, they never used any form of loan type credit, yet you expect them to know how it works and be able to impart that onto a spotty 16 year old? Yeah that's logical.

Any other questions about my life history you wish to not believe? My parents taught me if you want something to save up for it, but they were unable to prepare me for the hard sell sales pitches given by banks and the like, and this got me into trouble, do I blame them. Not in the slightest, the people I blame as the banks.

[mufc1959]

(snip)

There is a large elephant in the room here and that's our glorious mass media, who are (and were) happy to promote both sides of the inverse virtuous circle of mass debt. My step son came to us for a loan the other day (for a genuine reason I'll not go into here). So we started talking about their finances. How much is your mobile phone (top of the range iPhone on contract)? How much is your Sky subscription? And on and on. Why are all of these (heavily advertised - both directly and indirectly) 'products' needed? Why get into debt for them? He was not happy. There's too much to go into here about that reaction (and I'm no Psychologist any more than I'm a Financier or Lawyer) but his 'disappointment' at getting sound advice says it all really.

(snip)

There's plenty of blame to throw around but none of it will help those that fail to help themselves.

Thanks all for the healthy debate here. This is an interesting thread.

I totally agree with Nigel here. A case in point. Near my office we have a fair old number of coffee shops. Average price for a coffee is £2. A lot of my colleagues pop over to Starbucks, Costa, Pret, etc three, sometimes four or five times a day. It seems that the more junior a member of staff is, the more they tend to frequent these places. So someone on £20K a year can easily be spending £40 a week at Starbucks.

Now, I like coffee. I probably have three cups a day when I'm at work. But I don't like it enough to pay £6 a day for it. I can easily afford it, but I don't think it's worth it. We get free tea and coffee at work, but I don't like instant. So a workmate and I bought a cafetiere (one of those plunger things), a little milk frother gadget and we pop downstairs to the supermarket and buy our own nice ground coffee. Costs us about two quid a week, or less if we can find that nice Percol coffee in the 99p shop, to have our own cappuccino, latte or whatever. The two minutes it takes us to make the coffee and clean up the pot and frother is less time than it takes someone to go down to Starbucks.

But my younger colleagues don't think twice about spending massive amounts in Starbucks, or on other consumer luxuries. They all have new phones every few months. A lot of the lads have finance for cars that I could only dream about when I was their age - BMWs, Audis, etc. The girls love those huge ugly handbags and designer shoes. Most of them still live at home, and they can't see themselves being able to afford to buy a place any time in the foreseeable future (even in the north west, where prices are relatively low in the suburbs of Manchester). So they're living it large on credit, and probably (knowing how much they earn) making very little inroads into repaying the capital.

I see this a lot with customers I'm trying to help. Families sometimes spend £400 a month on mobiles, £100 on Sky, £200 on takeaways, plus bingo, football, holidays, Amazon, eBay, etc. etc. They're outraged if you suggest they could cut down on their consumer spending so they can pay their essential bills. But if you haven't got a wall to hang that giant flat-screen telly on, what's the point of buying it?

On the other hand, I've been working with someone who's in a mess because a business that owed him money went bust. He used the last of his overdraft to pay his sub-contractors. His mortgage got into arrears and he was flagged up on my radar. But he's cut back on everything to make ends meet, sold his car and bought an old banger, working a second job at weekends, his wife found a job cleaning offices during the week from 5am to 7am and from 7pm to 9pm, so they can both work but don't have to pay for babysitters, sold everything they don't need on eBay, shop at Lidl not M&S, cancelled Sky, borrow DVDs from the library. They can't downsize, it's a modest house, just your average 3-bed redbrick semi. They have to clear their arrears (almost done now) and keep up their payments for six months, and then we can see about transferring them onto a new fixed rate to get their payments down. I'd do it now if I could, but lending criteria, etc. He said to me the other week that this has been the hardest year of his life, but it's made him realise that keeping a roof over his family's head is the most important thing. He said they had a week camping this year instead of a fortnight in a villa abroad, and the kids loved it.

For that kind of client, I'll move heaven and earth to help them. There is no way they are going to end up in court, because they're determined to get out of debt - and not for free as per GOODF, but because they accept their own responsibility for paying back what they've borrowed.

[FatGambit]

I hate coffee.

[letissier14]

I apologise for my outburst, but I'm not going to be sniped at, spoken down to or insulted, when I all I do is help people in trouble.

I've posted enough stuff on here for any normal person to realise I am totally non fmotl.

I've posted on here at my own expense in the fact that I have upset loads of people on goodf and other similar sites because I have been very outspoken against them. So much so that my address, photos of my house and other personal details have been put up on facebook for all to see, added to the threat in private messages.

I've posted loads of info on here regarding the TC and used my contacts to get much of it.

But, I'm done on here now with the attitudes of some of the users.

[mufc1959]

I apologise for my outburst, but I'm not going to be sniped at, spoken down to or insulted, when I all I do is help people in trouble.

I've posted enough stuff on here for any normal person to realise I am totally non fmotl.

I've posted on here at my own expense in the fact that I have upset loads of people on goodf and other similar sites because I have been very outspoken against them. So much so that my address, photos of my house and other personal details have been put up on facebook for all to see, added to the threat in private messages.

I've posted loads of info on here regarding the TC and used my contacts to get much of it.

But, I'm done on here now with the attitudes of some of the users.

Letissier, I've always found your contributions valuable. I can see how you feel you're caught between the two camps, and I'm very sorry that you've fallen foul of the mob over the road. Take a breath, mate, and stick around. We need you here, as one of the few posters on this site who used to be 'one of them'.

[wanglepin]

As for the little weasel with the user name wanglepin, who has constantly sniped at me since the day I joined here, if you have something to say, lets be open about it and don't be sending me private messages, such as the following

Indeed, my snide remarks, as you say,are for the simple fact you, a moderator! stood by and watched bare faced liars perpetuate lie after lie without once challenging them. Indeed, you stood on the sidelines while others ran the gauntlet in attempting to expose these liars and their lies, and didn't raise a word in their defence or against said proven liar/s and this was well before you decided to leave goodf. .

I was hoping to keep personal spats off the forum, simply out of respect for other posters and of course the rules of the forum. . It doesn't serve too well. But I am happy for you to post your pm's, it makes no difference to me..
My question was; do you include freeman on the land and were you including those sites when you asked

Are the Banks/government to blame for the rise in sites like GOODF

Or don't you consider freeman sites to be like GOODF?

[wanglepin]

Tell me.... how many have you helped get out of debt?

Well the best way I can answer that is, I have never helped anyone get into debt or more debt.

[The Observer]

I am locking the topic for several reasons:

(1) The topic has resulted in name-calling and personal attacks. We simply do not tolerate that type of interaction on this site. We will not let the quality of posting here be dragged down into the mud. If people cannot treat each other with respect and accept that there are different opinions, then the discussion needs to end.

(2) The topic in itself was irrelevant to what the purpose of Quatloos is for: to expose scams and scammers. The site does not exist so that we can explore social, political, religious or economic factors. These are always present and it is always arguable as to how much they contribute to the problems of scammers. These issues are so debatable and stir up so much passion, it is not surprising that the current thread has started turning nasty. Which is why these types of topics are not allowed on Quatloos.

(3) The topic can be raised and discussed elsewhere on the Internet. For those who think that it is wrong to block such conversations, the point is that Quatloos is not a democracy, but a form of benevolent oligarchy that does not have to allow carte blanche on the forums here.

Future attempts at restarting this or similar topics will get the thread locked and deleted.