ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

[JamesVincent]

How Gillis and Wishner are going to pay for their defense:

http://www.wsbtv.com/videos/news/thieve ... tm/vC24GD/

[notorial dissent]

Nah!!! That'd require like real work, yanno, physical labor. I just don't see it happening.

[Jroger]

There seems to be some question about the intelligence of the investors and how they were duped. I also had many friends who invested for years getting plus 20% returns and I was told in 2013 that a small amount of ATMs had become available and if I wanted, I could get in on it. Feeling like I was going to belong to a special exclusive club, I invested, then I did again two months later and then again later (August 2014 after the sec subpoena). I cannot blame the guys that got me into this because the decision was mine. My wife who supports me unconditionally, tells our kid's the decision was all ours. Because it is my kids that will lose some of their inheritance because of this. I just want to say I was always a smart conservative man but lack of any ability to get any decent return on any investment caused me to get greedy. I honestly did not believe it was illegal. Again I thought it was some secret investment that special people got to be a part of. I guess I was delusional

[Tednewsom]

Yeah.

I don't think anyone would suggest you or any other victimized investor was stupid. In fact, I don't think anyone's said that here. I've said over and over: a good con man knows how to use a person's intelligence against them, and the smarter they are, the better. All the grifter has to do is plant the seed and show & tell about all those other lucky people, those happy investors getting bags full of free money every month. They can't all be idiots or fools, you reason. And they really are getting money-- way more money than you could make with a savings account or stock in an aluminum company.

The obvious un-workability of the scheme and the impossible percentages promised-- well, you can either shrug to yourself and say, "That's beyond me, so I'll just trust that it's true" or let your left brain figure out intricate reasons why it really is a legitimate business and makes perfect sense. And the human brain is marvelous. Even given the most illogical set of circumstances and the most outrageous ideas, it will figure out order to the chaos.

And there is an element of greed there. The idea of getting over on someone is appealing-- in this case, those silly people who put their money in things like T-bills and government bonds. It's not essentially evil: with money, you can take care of yourself and your loved ones. With more money, you can take care of them better. And, heck, once you see that money rolling in, if you're a really caring person, you'll pass the word along to close friends and relations, to let them get the benefits. And why wouldn't you? You have let yourself see the facts which please you-- the checks every month. And the grifter didn't even have to pressure you, just let your own brain figure out why it must be a legit business. You have given yourself confidence in the scheme.

And getting the target's confidence is why they call it a "con."

[notorial dissent]

This scam worked for pretty much the same reason that the Madoff scam worked. His figures were too good to be true, but he seemed to be doing what he was claiming so he kept getting more and more high rollers, many of whom are very smart people, just not all that savvy about investment, and he took them all for a merry and expensive ride. Same here, yes greed undoubtedly played a part, why shouldn't you get a better ROI than the other guy if you've got that good an investment. I think most if not nearly all of the investors in NASI were there because they had thought they'd found that kind of investment, unfortunately and unhappily for them they hadn't.

[NYGman]

I was always a smart conservative man but lack of any ability to get any decent return on any investment caused me to get greedy. I honestly did not believe it was illegal. Again I thought it was some secret investment that special people got to be a part of. I guess I was delusional

There are no secret investments that special people get that return above and beyond the normal. Even great funds only show past performance and warn of the risks in using those to measure future performance.

I don't believe it had anything to do with intelligence, smart people can get conned. I just believe you have to be somewhat dishonest with yourself to be conned. You fool yourself into believing that something too good to be true is true. That to me is intellectual dishonesty.

[Famspear]

I agree with Ted and NYGman about being conned. I have believed for a long time that anyone -- no matter how smart and how well educated -- can theoretically be conned in a financial scam, given the "right" circumstances. The bad guy has a better chance of executing the scam successfully if the bad guy knows enough about the victim, and especially knows the things that the victim knows. In other words, if the bad guy is as sophisticated about financial matters as is the victim, the chance of the scam "working" is increased. Fortunately, I have never been a victim of a financial scam, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't happen.

[Judge Roy Bean]

There are no secret investments that special people get that return above and beyond the normal. Even great funds only show past performance and warn of the risks in using those to measure future performance.
...

Actually, there are, but you have to have extraordinary means and you can't invest in them unless the potential losses won't materially affect you.

[ghensuijuris]

Yes there are closed door investment opportunities for wealthy investors. This is part of the allure fraudsters utilize to welcome the marks. We may even count ourselves fortunate to be invited into the fold. And because they are very private offerings, the admonition to 'say nothing, nothing', rings true.
As if an alternate reality is possible. We'll have an endless supply of income, and whatever vices we care to indulge. Ah, were the benefits to mankind possible, with such a collaboration. Instead, another door closes. The wealth of the good intentioned vanishes. Leaving the corporate empire, bankers, and the machine of war even stronger.
Thank you all for the honest expressions within this venue.

[NYGman]

There are hedge funds, private equity funds, and real estate funds that are only open to certain accredited investors. Some of these have had high returns in years past, but have also had huge losses before being closed down. None of these guarentee a return, although they may provide certain promises of returns if in the money, like a prefered return. However whle these investments are closed to the average joe, they are not promising 20% returns for life.

I work in this indusindustry, and have seen large winners and large loosers, but nothing is ever quarenteed, and these funds are by no means secret. They are well known, some offer regulated products that invest in these types of products, so there are ways the average investor can get exposure to a basket of these.

Not disclosing names, i had one fund of funds that purchased a large portfolio of funds from another fund that was liquidating after returning large profits and going to the end of their term. They ended up returning all capital within 3 years, and started paying out huge profits for the next 5. I had another fund that had to liquidate after loosing 70% of value in 3 years. Risk is still inherently a factor in these funds, nothing is a sure thing.

[grimreaper]

nothing is a sure thing

bingo!

And that's exactly the problem..NASI made a 20% return>>>*A SURE THING*..GUARANTEED.

[Judge Roy Bean]

... and these funds are by no means secret. ...

[wserra]

NYGman expresses my understanding of the situation. Perhaps Judge Roy could give us an example of one of his secret funds.

[Gregg]

I have money in a hedge fund, and its not really a secret per se, but they're not allowed to advertise. Also, I make pretty good returns, I have had years over 40% and I've taken losses on others, overall for 7 years so far I'm up 22%. There are also rules, lots of rules. I can't just call and say I want my money, there is an annual redemption period during which I can withdraw, they have to option to close up with I think 30 days notice... to make an initial deposit you have to have a net worth over $1 million excluding your primary home or have over $250k of income for I think the last 2 years. So there's the only "secret investment only available to the rich" that I know about, and my own "super returns" are a little better than 20% largely because I got in, and the fund started, near the very bottom of the collapse.

[Judge Roy Bean]

NYGman expresses my understanding of the situation. Perhaps Judge Roy could give us an example of one of his secret funds.

They don't stay secret permanently:

http://www.icij.org/offshore

There is no end to human creativity.

[itzallgone]

Why haven't the feds gone after this place yet:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Fratelli ... 8796791740

It is ran by his son and daughter-in-law. According to: http://www.corporationwiki.com/Californ ... 19629.aspx

The registered agent is Edward Wishner.

[notorial dissent]

The facebook link comes up dead.

Good question, possibly no connection other than familial, or they may not have gotten that far in the corporate records so far, or there may not be one.

[Tednewsom]

Why haven't the feds gone after this place yet:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Fratelli ... 8796791740

It is ran by his son and daughter-in-law. According to: http://www.corporationwiki.com/Californ ... 19629.aspx

The registered agent is Edward Wishner.

Since Agoura and Woodland Hills are adjacent (NASI in Agoura, and before that, Canoga Park, also adjacent to Woodland Hills), I shall guess this "Jill W." voting for Fraterelli's Pizza is in fact Jill Wishner, Big Ed's daughter in law:
http://la.cityvoter.com/user/f0325aa606e5e2fd

Not that there's anything wrong with voting for yourself.

Now, starting a business with embezzled funds, that's a different story.

[webhick]

The receiver's first report was approved. You can read it at the receiver's site here.

In short:

• The receiver is getting rid of the office space, sending leased equipment back and selling off the rest.
• The receiver will continue to operate the legitimate ATM business until it can be sold.
• The Oasis companies have been official deemed as affiliated. While the assets were previously frozen, what this means is that the receiver can suck up all the affiliated assets and use that to make the victims whole.
• Receiver reports will be due every 90 days.

[notorial dissent]

Pretty much the standard procedure on something like this, nothing new or unexpected. Will be interesting to see what they turn up when they take the affiliates apart. So another three months until the next installment.