ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

[investor]

When are you going to answer my questions?

[worried]

For all victims:

Spend your energy trying to help yourself. Band together, search out lawyers who specialize in these Ponzi scams. I'm sure the vast majority of you were, and are, well-meaning victims. Help the authorities help you as well...

[investor]

Still waiting..............

[JamesVincent]

Still waiting..............

Still waiting for answers to the questions you were asked first, much less the multiple questions found through out this thread.

[Pottapaug1938]

Still waiting..............

You don't make the rules here. Your posts, if they can be characterized as such, contain nothing but snarky accusations. You want answers from any of us? Well, then, lay out in detail why ATM leasebacks are a good investment -- and be sure to document your claims, because you won't get far at all with us if you don't.

[Tednewsom]

Dear "Investor"--

I stated my concerns and "agenda" upfront, in the original post. I asked if anyone knew anything good about this company or the business practice -- and did it not sound like a Ponzi scheme. I asked out of concern for someone I know has their life savings tied up in it, someone who asked me ten years ago if it sounded like something I'd like to invest in. From that time, from the time I first ran the numbers, something did not make any mathematical sense.

If you bothered to actually notice, most of the responses on this detailed, 18-page thread are from professionals who actually know what they're talking about: accountants, investment counselors, financial advisors-- people whom the SEC would classify as "sophisticated investors" -- as opposed to first-timers who don't bother to do the math, innocents who believe a "can't lose" pitch.

Indeed, I have not posted much at all in the past couple years since my elders and betters have taken up the investigation. But as it turned out, my suspicions seem to have been not only justified, but right in most particulars from get-go.

Yes, I have a personal agenda. Like several other people here, I've got someone I care very much about, and I don't want to see that person devastated by an obvious scam. Without the dribs and drabs of ATM "profits" each month, that person will not be able to pay their mortgage and will lose their home. I will repeat that: they will lose their goddamned home.
Think that through.

[Tednewsom]

How are you going to help others out? With or without the letter. Worried...........so you are the one who went to the SEC.....why? What is this to you? Why do you care? What is your motivation? A family member invested? I think not. By instigating SEC investigation you have harmed your family member. How do you sleep at night? What goes around comes around.

Are these the questions you keep wanting to be answered? Because the answers should be obvious... even to an unsophisticated investor like me. And although they're clearly aimed at others, if I can understand the answers in view of what others have posted here, I'm sure you are bright enough to understand as well.

1) "How are you going to help others out?" -- by having them withdraw their money from a clearly shaky and possibly illegal Ponzi scheme before it collapses entirely and takes every dime with it.

2) "... so you [he. Or she] are the one who went to the SEC.....why? What is this to you? Why do you care? What is your motivation?" Caution on behalf of someone they love. I think that's a pretty solid motivation.

3) "By instigating SEC investigation you have harmed your family member. How do you sleep at night?" I'd guess they sleep pretty uneasily until the situation is resolved.

Understand this, "Investor": the SEC does not undertake an investigation lightly. In fact, they do everything to avoid investigating even obvious criminality, much less something borderline-legal, or something which prima facea appears legit. They do not even act unless people -- plural -- complain to them that they've either been financially harmed or robbed utterly. And they certainly do not take major action like freezing funds unless they've already acquired enough information to convince them that something is wrong.

That does not, by the way, mean that you are either dumb or crooked for believing the pitch, or even promulgating it to others. Quite the contrary, I suspect you are probably smart and legitimately honest. However, the more intelligent and honest a person is, the easier it is for a clever con artist to use those admirable traits against them.

[Concerned Citizen]

Here is the letter verbatim folks. I wish I knew how to post a scan of the actual letter so I am sorry that it has to be hand typed in here. I will send the JPEG to anyone who requests it as proof I am not making this up. My sister and her husband received it the other day in the mail:

September 10, 2014

To All Investors;

We thank you for your loyalty over the past nineteen (19) years!

Our business has run very smoothly for the most part and we have done our best to operate in a professional manor (sic) always keeping in mind that you the investors are counting on your checks to be on time. Last month we had a setback and except for a few sales of ATMs back to us, most people understood that sometimes businesses have problems.

Last month I wrote to you saying that the checks for September would go out between the 8th and the 10th. Unfortunately we have another obstacle.

We have been issued a Subpoena by the Security Exchange Commission and have been trying to accommodate their requests for various documents and records. The expense has been enormous. We have hired attorneys and CPAs to work on the subpoena. The SEC is suggesting that our company being The manager of your ATM machines has been operating a security without registering as such.

There is the possibility that the SEC will secure the appointment of a receiver to take over the management and control of Nationwide. If appointed the receiver would have control over the receipts disbursements and buybacks of your ATMs on a monthly basis. There is a possibility that if the checks are mailed, The receiver could recall those checks. Therefore, we feel it is in the best interest of the investors and our company that the monthly checks are not mailed until a decision is made regarding the security issue.

Thank you for your patience and understanding. We will keep you advised on a regular basis as important things occur regarding our situation.

Joe Gillis
President

Edward Wishner
Secretary/Treasurer


And that was the letter from Nationwide. For the record, my sister and her husband NEVER received a letter stating a reason for the delay in their disbursement as stated in the letter. They started investing in this company 2 ½ years ago and as recently as three weeks ago added to thier investment a total of 24 machines for a grand total of $228,000. Their attorney is now involved and quite frankly they have been told their chances of recovering the investment is slim. Also, they may be on the hook for whatever disbursement a they received on a monthly basis. What a mess.

[Concerned Citizen]

In reading back over what I wrote at the end of my post, I feel I need to clarify something.

They originally purchased 20 machines 2 1/2 years ago. Just three weeks ago they increased their holdings to 24 machines by purchasing four more. So they just sent this joker $48,000.00 3 weeks ago and now this.

Also for the record, phone calls are not being answered or returned at this time by nationwide according to my sister and her husband. When trying to leave a message, the system is telling them that their choices are invalid and then hanging up on them.

[worried]

I can translate that letter:

"Dear, beloved suckers,

Damn, damn, and damn! I should have taken the money and got out of the country when I had the chance!... damn!.... too bad, so sad.... at least I had a good time!....hahahhaahaahhaaaa!!!...."

Those guys are complete sociopaths people, they don't care for you or your families one bit, not even their own families. You can bet they're lawyering up. You need to as well, get legal help, and let the authorities help you as well. Ted was right, the SEC and the FBI are WAY, WAY too busy with a lot of bad crap in the world (just watch the news) to waste time on something like this if it wasn't REALLY SERIOUS and OBVIOUSLY A SCAM that affects a LOT OF PEOPLE.

[Tednewsom]

Hi Ted Newsom and Ted Newsom............sour grapes...........you have a personal agenda that has nothing to do with this............again, shame on you.

Actually, I do have a personal agenda. I like to help people avoid trouble. Even people I scarcely know. I'll give you a for-instance.

About 20 years ago I was working for an investigation company. A gal-pal of mine asked me if I could do a favor for a girlfriend of hers. She had come up with a clever gimmick product and was doing well with it on a small level. Some older, sophisticated financial guy liked her product and told the gal he'd back her company for 50% ownership in it. They could expand, get in stores coast to coast, etc., etc. He saw great things ahead for them as a team.

Because I had access to court records through work, my friend asked me-- on her girlfriend's behalf-- to look into the guy's record. I did, and found that every person who had ever done business with him had ended up suing him. Like-- every one! I relayed that information (I think it was about five pages of details of assorted lawsuits and injunctions against him) and she wisely decided not to go into a partnership with him. The happy ending was, she did quite well with her product on her own, without the dubious help of Mr. Lawsuit.

I figure I saved her a hundred thousand dollars at least, and certainly a major pile of trouble and heartache. I can't recall if she ever bothered to thank me.

Again, I scarcely knew her; she was a friend of a friend. I did it because it was the right thing to do and I didn't want to see her to get hurt. I still don't.

[JamesVincent]

Concerned, please check your PMs. If a popup does not come up you can check your PMs by going to the box at the top of the page marked messages, next to your login.

[Concerned Citizen]

Sent James Vincent

[notorial dissent]

Concerned Citizen, thank you very much for posting that letter.

Reading between the lines, and not being quite as subtle as worried, I'm afraid that it pretty well translates as "ya all's screwed". If the company bigshots are talking about the possible "appointment of a receiver" it isn't a possibility, it is more likely a dead bang certainty. The SEC doesn't do something like that lightly, and if they are even talking about it, things are not at all good.

As I, and several others, pointed out much earlier in the thread, just because NASI swore up and down and promised that they weren't dealing in securities, to us it appeared they were, and that it was a bad deal all 'round. I'm very much afraid that prediction has come home to roost, and along with it I expect a lot of other albatri to come along as well to keep it company. I really wish we had been wrong, but it isn't looking good. Any time a company resists having an investment attorney or specialist look at them it is not a good sign.

[MarvinGardens]

If you want to understand why the SEC is investigating NASI for securities violations read my post of Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:23 pm. It has nothing to do with ATMs or the fact that NASI is managing them - because ATMs are not their real product. What they are selling is unregistered annuities from an unlicensed entity using unlicensed representatives.

[JamesVincent]

Concerned emailed a pic of the letter to me and it does indeed say, verbatim, what he had wrote. If anyone else wants I can upload it later. I checked the SEC site last night and did not find any mention of the SEC looking into NAS, but that's hardly unusual in the beginnings of an investigation.

[10 year investor]

I've invested with Nationwide for 10 years and know Joel very well. Hopefully I can shed some light on things. He's still in town and returning some calls but as expected, the phone rings nonstop. I was referred by a client and bought 10 machines in the beginning thinking it could very well be a Ponzi scheme. Got my checks every month for 3 years and didn't have one interaction with anyone. There were no solicitations then either. It was going well so I called Joel and asked if I could buy more. He didn't have any at the time and I waited 3 months to get more. Other times I waited 6 months. They finally started mailing out machine availability so they wouldn't get so many calls. I've had breakfasts and lunches with Joel, called him at his office at 7 am and he always picked up etc. He's always there. This is his baby. Or was.

They have always brought in investors. Initially because they had no money but always so they can buy machines for the company. For $12,000, Nationwide can buy 3 machines. One for the investor and 2 for the company so that part of the model makes sense and it's not a secret. I have sold machines over the years and got full price for them within days. I personally know investors who have over 2000 machines and we have all compared locations and serial numbers. Never a match. I've had white collar crime investigators check them out and I've talked to their personal banker at their old bank who gave me basic numbers of what was running through the account. I've seen some of the machines I own. I believe Joel and his partner to be honest men and don't believe they would risk going to jail or their families going to jail and 19 years of a proven thing is a long time. Just on the people I know, $400k goes to them each month.

I can shed light on what is going on now. After a complaint, the SEC sent Nationwide an administrative subpoena requesting documents back in June. Nationwide hired counsel and complied. As of now, no Ponzi scheme has been uncovered. Nothing has been seized which I think would if there was fraud scheme. However, Nationwide will be shut down for selling unregistered securities. The business accounts have been frozen and a receiver will come in within a week and temporarily take over operations until all investors are made whole. It will take about $100 million to do that but the company generates $25 million a month in income from investor and company machines. Nationwide will get none of that. It will take 4-6 months for everyone to get paid starting with the newer investors. Once done, the machines will be sold for $1000 or whatever and the receiver and government will keep the proceeds. There should be funds to make everyone whole as long as they don't screw it up. We will get a letter from the receiver detailing this. They will go after Joel and Ed personally but it doesn't sound like it will be necessary.

This could still be a Ponzi scheme but from what I've been privy to, it's not. And if it's not, then the outcome of taking a successful 20 year business away from 2 men is sad. They had a large law firm advise them they didn't need to register and I saw that in writing. Again, it could still be a Ponzi scheme but I would be shocked based on what I have seen and know. We'll see how it shakes out in the next few weeks.

[Lost Income]

Hello, I'm new to this thread.

My Wife and I invested in several machines thru NAS a couple years ago, after reviewing the flawless payment history and rough operational numbers which seems to make reasonably sense at the time. We have retired and are dependent on this income, and now Joel has stopped monthly pmts and disappeared, and Ed's accounting office is open but he dodges phone conversation, so there is no way to reach anyone for info. I phoned the SEC using a phone number from the website recommended in a prior thread, and they could find no auditing being conducted on NAS, stated that the SEC only pursues stock/bonds type cases, and told me that if anyone was auditing NAS for ATM Leasebacks it would have to be the California Attorney General and gave me their phone number, which is impossible to speak to human.

Can anyone help me with how to verify SEC progress, and best methods for persuing this situation given Joel & Ed have disappeared? I'm guessing that if we hire an attorney, he can only file suit against NAS for not honoring the contract?

Open for aggressive suggestions. Thanks!!

[MarvinGardens]

Lost Income, welcome to the thread.

I am not an attorney but I have a significant amount of experience with the SEC, NASD, FINRA and other financial regulatory agencies and I can tell you approximately what you can expect.

SEC is probably investigating whether or not NASI is operating as an investment company which should be licensed and determining whether or not the agreement between NASI and its investors constitutes a security which should be registered. If they find evidence that fraud has been committed, they will turn over their information to the appropriate state agencies to take what measures they wish.

If a law firm gave NASI the advice that they did not have to be registered or licensed, it was either an incompetent law firm (in securities law) or the advice was given a long time ago. There is clear precedent for the opposite opinion within the last five years. You can find cites on this forum. The SEC has indeed shut down ATM leaseback schemes in the past. I recall a Denver case settled against a California ATM leaseback company that seems nearly identical to NASI. But it only applied in the state of Colorado.

In general, SEC will not comment on an open investigation. If you hold agreements with NASI you will, at some point, be contacted by SEC or by a receiver should one be appointed if action is warranted. You could sue NASI but you will have to stand in line.

You might consider sitting tight until contacted. An attorney will not have much better luck than you at this point learning what is going on - but you will be billed none the less. There are a considerable number of people involved in this affair, some of them quite prominent, who are not a party to this thread. If the case is large enough, claimants may pool resources in a class action.

I'm sorry for your misfortune. Now, it's time for the regulatory agencies to sort this out.

[Lost Income]

Thanks everyone for the very helpful info in the last couple posts!!!

Everybody I know that has invested in NAS, would still be surprised if this were found to be a ponzi scheme.

Unfortunately many investors are very soured against NAS right now, not because their biz is having some problems as we all know that happens occasionally, but due to Joel & Ed's lack of respect to communicate with investors and provide the info you people have provided here today.