ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

[MarvinGardens]

According to the FBI:

NASI has sold approximately 31,000 machines. So that means the total take is between 500 million and 750 million because they were sold at different prices. They are judging it a Ponzi scheme and have enough evidence to prosecute for fraud and money laundering.

SEC will be charging NASI for selling unregistered securities, from an unlicensed dealership through unlicensed representatives. These really are unregistered annuities - the ATMs don't really matter it was just a cover. See my former posts for a detailed discussion of how this works.

Those of you who did not report commissions from NASI to the IRS, particularly if you were paid in cash, will be hearing from the IRS.

Any of you who think this is an honest business need to face reality. You've been scammed. I feel for you. Those of you who brought innocents into the scheme be prepared for bankruptcy.

[The Observer]

But does that mean that NASI acquired 31,000 machines? And if so, how many of those "belonged" to the investors and how many were NASI's?

The other thing I find disquieting about this situation is that the local mainstream media has not picked up on this story yet.

[Lost Income]

Per this string apparently some people are getting info from the SEC and FBI, yet I can't find any of this specific info via the web or news. Please can someone suggest specific people & their contact info at the FBI and SEC for our keeping up with this investigation and how we investors may be affected?

Thanks

[notorial dissent]

As a side note, if NASI sold acquired 31,000 machines, that doesn't say what they actually paid for the machines. I'm betting that the markup, to the marks "investors" was substantial, so the actual profit to NASI was probably pretty good on the machines as well.

I have to agree with Observer about the lack of news, but then again, this isn't sexy like the Maddoff fraud, and probably won't make the news until it is a real slow boring news day, if someone is paying attention. There are a lot of SEC actions that never make a blip on the news front.

With apologies to Lost Income, the people in the Madoff case got pennies back on the hundreds of thousands to millions they had invested, in other words, barely pocket change. They got screwed coming and going, and truthfully, I don't see much better likelihood here either as I think the "boys" salted the money away in other money losing ventures.

If we have unlicensed securities, ponzi, money laundering, and I'm sure there will be lots of tax evasion, it doesn't look good.

[worried]

I was told that the FBI will have a special website up and running next week just for this.

As for the SEC, there was a post just a page or so back with a contact number and a special email for this case.

There are THOUSANDS of victims. I would try avoiding phone calls, from what I've been told, the people working this whose phone number went public have had their phone inundated. Early on, with the permission of one of the SEC lawyers I gave out his contact info via personal messages to only a few people to deliberately avoid making his phone useless.

There is such a huge crowd of people interested in this now, everyone is going to have to wait for the authorities to coordinate mass disseminations and collection of complaints....

....

What an interesting contrast: go back to the early postings of this discussion and compare the indignation and ability of the true believers to completely ignore facts with the reality of today.

[Lost Income]

Thank you for the information. How did you find out about the website that FBI will be posting, and how can we find out when/where this site will be available to us?

[MarvinGardens]

To clarify -

NASI sold about 31,000 contracts that are known to exist. I don't believe a full audit has been done and therefore, the number of machines and who owns them is still unknown. Unless you have a serial number and a location and physical verification you may own nothing but a fraudulent document. Even then, you will not know if someone else holds an identical title. Please read my post about auditing.

This investigation is still in progress. The authorities will not speculate on how it will affect you. They believe they have a solid case based on what they discovered so far but this may take some time, months or years before you will find out where you stand. I don't expect NASI to just roll over. My personal belief is that they have an extensive war chest - but that's just speculation.

Innocent purchasers will probably get something from the pool of assets recovered by various agencies including clawbacks from people who were fully paid out and those who took commissions. The papers haven't picked up the story because there is no final information, no charges, no arrests, no indictments. The agencies are reviewing subpoenaed documents and taking depositions. The agencies will not publicly announce anything until they are quite sure of their cases. Nor, should they.

Those of us who do have direct contact with the agencies are not going to divulge the contact information because the investigators have a job to do (and number of other cases) and do not have the time to answer the questions of so many victims - if that's what you are. Thoroughly read the posts on this thread, follow the cites of similar cases and you will probably have a pretty good idea of what you can expect to recover. The short version is - not much. The work has been done for you on this thread. Take advantage of it.

[Lost Income]

Thank you for this inside information. Guess we'll all be watching this thread for further instructions from someone.

[worried]

Lost Income:

I was told about the website just yesterday by my FBI contact who I only bothered because of the threatening phone call at my house(!!!)... I did not ask permission to share ANY info that FBI contact gave me, but I figured it was safe to share that much. Honestly, I don't know much more than that anyway, but I wouldn't share more substantial stuff without permission. I'm just a poster on a discussion forum.... Will the website be up and running next week? Who knows, their IT dept may be just as busy as everybody else.... I know you're starved for info. I empathize. A few of us seem to be 'privy' only because we were the first ones to contact the authorities. Other than that, there's nothing special about me (I can't speak for others)...

[Lost Income]

Thanks to everyone! Looks like this thread is becoming our best source of dependable info at this time, which I suspect only a fraction of the victims are aware of.

[JamesVincent]

I have to agree with Observer about the lack of news, but then again, this isn't sexy like the Maddoff fraud, and probably won't make the news until it is a real slow boring news day, if someone is paying attention. There are a lot of SEC actions that never make a blip on the news front.....

....If we have unlicensed securities, ponzi, money laundering, and I'm sure there will be lots of tax evasion, it doesn't look good.

I sent a message to a reporter I talk to on occasion in D.C. to give her a heads up. If the estimates quoted are close to correct this whole thing would fall short of Madoff but will still be quite a large bust. Definitely the largest lease-back scam that I know of.

[10 year investor]

Clearly, MarvinGardens has a connection and it's not looking good. If true, these guys will go down as two of the best scammers ever. Pulled it off for 19 years. I spoke with a few investors today and everyone is very nervous. Some were new and some over 5 years. They all heard the same story from Joel. That the company owned 17,000 machines and the investors 8000. That over $10 million in revenue comes in each month. I know many investors and have never heard of anyone paying more than $12k for a machine and nobody was ever offered or took a commission. Could be a different group out of my circle did.

If Ed is admitting anything, Joel is still saying it will all work out. What's interesting is that one of their accounts is not frozen. New checks that were issued to replace last months returned checks are still clearing and some replacement checks were written this week as well. That shocks me if the FBI is on it and a receiver has been appointed.

I called on a few of my machines yesterday and the services confirmed NAS still owns them. NAS clearly owns thousands of machines. How many is the question. They would have had to pay out $8 million a month at this point and $5-$6 million per month in the last few years. Doing the math, they have paid out about $700 million and taken in about $400 million meaning there is revenue. That would mean the average revenue over the 19 years was about $15-20 million per year. I'm guessing the real revenue is around double that now or this would have collapsed earlier if they hadn't continued to buy some machines. I would imagine that each machine earns around $200/mo so they must own around 160000 machines and investors who put in the last 5 years would get there money back in 4-5 years if the receiver can keep it going that long. Everyone else will lose their principal unless they can keep it running. Anyone else please feel free to chime in with the numbers.

I would think their bank could get hit. It's a big account and they can see the difference between money coming in from people and revenue coming in versus what is going out.

[worried]

10 yr: Your realism is refreshing now. Let me just say you MIGHT be optimistic in some of your assumptions about the ratio of 'legitimate' NASI business vs. complete falsehoods. I'm the suspicious type, I don't necessarily believe those people who are telling you NASI still 'owns' machines (isn't YOU who 'owns' machines?... if you pull on that thread I suspect the story would fall apart). ... BUT... I don't REALLY know anything except what I knew all along: it was a scam through and through. There MAY be some legitimate cash flow to help in easing pain. That would be great... Hoping for the best doesn't hurt as long as you plan for the worst...

[snookered]

@TedNewsom

I found my printout from the BBB which gives them a AAA rating. For some reason, the imageshack website won't allow me to upload copies of documents, it seems to want photos?
I was also going to attach a copy of the Subpoena that NASI received, that Ed gave me Tuesday. At this point though, I doubt anyone really cares to see either.... It won't change a thing!

[webhick]

If Ed is admitting anything, Joel is still saying it will all work out. What's interesting is that one of their accounts is not frozen. New checks that were issued to replace last months returned checks are still clearing and some replacement checks were written this week as well. That shocks me if the FBI is on it and a receiver has been appointed.

I suppose it's possible that when one bank account is frozen, you can walk into a different bank and open a new account, provided it's done quickly. That account wouldn't be frozen until the authorities found out about it and subsequently shut it down too. Not sure how long it would take to get an order to shut down the new account.

[webhick]

@TedNewsom

I found my printout from the BBB which gives them a AAA rating. For some reason, the imageshack website won't allow me to upload copies of documents, it seems to want photos?
I was also going to attach a copy of the Subpoena that NASI received, that Ed gave me Tuesday. At this point though, I doubt anyone really cares to see either.... It won't change a thing!

You can email them to me and I'll host them. I'll send you a PM with my address.

ETA: If anyone has any documents regarding the NASI case you want hosted, please PM me.

[webhick]

BBB Rating from 2007 I guess the BBB did have AAA ratings seven years ago. They've changed their system since then, no longer relying on local BBB websites for the rating. I suppose NASI's rating could have been wiped in the process.

Subpoena from June 17, 2014. The subpoena reveals the name of the SEC agent investigating. Please do not contact him with questions, he's got enough on his plate. Wait for the websites.

Until the websites come online at the SEC and FBI, victims should start gathering any records they have regarding the scam. This should include any communications with NASI, their representatives and anyone else who helped land the deal, so to speak; the monthly statements from NASI; contracts; bank statements and other financial records which demonstrate your investments and the payouts.

The investigators may not need it, but if NASI didn't retain accurate records, it may help them piece together the extent of the scam and what victims are owed. Every bit of information may help yourself and others recover what was lost. Don't get your hopes too high, since getting back lost funds depends highly on how much the authorities can liquidate NASI for, how much can be clawed back from those who got back more than they put in, as well as other factors beyond the obvious.

And if you're one of the ones who benefited, don't be a shit and try to hide any assets in an attempt to retain your gains. If you do, you're just victimizing the victims all over again. And being a shit.

[snookered]

I have a copy of every single piece of paper that was ever sent or given to me from NASI. All of my contracts, serial #'s, locations, letters announcing that new locations are available, and a wealth of info that I have collected over the years from the internet, because I have always been skeptical, and now I realize, really gullible.

[itzallgone]

I'll just say I know people who are probably out a couple pennies, and by pennies I mean whatever the cost x multiple "ATM" purchases.

The whole excuses of new accounts/getting a huge million dollar check written to them bounced/systems upgrade is all lies.

I did find this, A LOT of reading. It is an old SEC document that details some things about Joel and Ed when they had the company known as ATM Holding Inc.

It is here in text format:

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/conta ... 000655.txt

[10 year investor]

Assuming 31,000 machines have been sold and assuming half those have been sold in the last 5 years which might be high, I estimate it will take $100 million for the newer investors to recoup their principal. Anyone longer than that already has. I'm still thinking the company is generating around $40 million a year in real revenue so it seems there's a shot the newer ones will get principal back assuming the receiver can keep it going for 2 plus years. That's the danger if contracts expire and the operation doesn't run well because the principals are gone. They still need Joel and Ed to help them do that and hopefully they will make sure it happens. Their continued cooperation is key and they're certainly motivated to minimize losses.

Totally agree on people paying back any profits if necessary with one caveat. People received 1099's and paid taxes on the income. Probably around 20-30%. It wouldn't be fair to make newer investors whole at the expense of those who would end up taking a hit because of taxes paid on the income because it's not really income now. If someone put in $1 mil and got back $1.2 mil but paid $200k in taxes, they shouldn't have to forfeit $200k to make others even as that would put them down $200k. I don't know the tax rules but I doubt you can go back 5 to 19 years and file amended returns.