And my playful guess-timate was $59,400,000 x 2 years -- $118,800,000.grimreaper wrote: The $123M was for a 1 1/2YR period from Jan 2013 on.
I'm better at this than I thought. Hey, what's $4.2 million between friends?
And my playful guess-timate was $59,400,000 x 2 years -- $118,800,000.grimreaper wrote: The $123M was for a 1 1/2YR period from Jan 2013 on.
I don't see a date-range specified in the Receiver's report. I'm assuming it was in one of the other filings.grimreaper wrote: The $123M was for a 1 1/2YR period from Jan 2013 on. ...
I'm working on the sequel, "Freeing a man sentenced to prison for the rest of his life for a crime which never happened." I'll work in an ATM scene for the fans of the first one as an in-joke.NYGman wrote: This thread has everything, and had me riveted from start to finish.
Of course you can con and honest man, fraud is ubiquitous and most of the victims are people who don't do their research or don't have good advisers. Life is full of dumb luck translating into big profits, most rich people got that at least partly through dumb luck and kept it through shrewd tight wad methods.NYGman wrote:Having spent the last few days reading this thread from start to finish, I have to say this is an amazing thread. From the initial questions, to the defenders of this business plan swearing it is legitimate despite obvious red flags, to the downfall, and postings from scammed investors.
This thread has everything, and had me riveted from start to finish.
Three things come to mind in this thread, that may have helped those that got caught up in this.
1) If it is too good to be true, it probably is. - A Guaranteed 20% ROI in perpetuity is really hard to believe
2) You can't con an honest man. - To believe this was legitimate, you must have been dishonest to yourself.
3) There is no such thing as a free lunch.
I am not saying those who lost out deserved it, I am sure most don't and this is going to cause hardships, but some people do make it easier for people like these to to take their hard earned money.
I see Fraud and a Con as two separate things. You can defraud an honest man, but to con someone takes some dishonesty on the part of the person being conned. Maybe it was a bad point then, as I can buy that some were defrauded, but others were certainly conned.Number Six wrote: Of course you can con and honest man, fraud is ubiquitous and most of the victims are people who don't do their research or don't have good advisers. Life is full of dumb luck translating into big profits, most rich people got that at least partly through dumb luck and kept it through shrewd tight wad methods.
I am truly sorry for your loss, and the fact that they took you for so much. But for 9 years, you had doubts, but seeing others profiting, you threw caution in to the wind, and invested every penny you had and some, on a guaranteed 20% return for life. You were honest with yourself for those 9 years, but then the lure of a guaranteed return without having to lift a finger, made you pull the trigger. This was easy money, and they suckered you in to it. The return were too good to be true, and after missing out on them for 9 years, you felt it time you collect too, or something like that. You had to be somewhat dishonest with yourself, to sink everything in to an investment like this and think it was a good investment. There is risk in everything. Without diversification you bear those risks.Reader wrote:Those of you who are posting helpful stuff, thank you. There's little encouragement for many of us.
For those who are projecting dishonesty onto the investors, this is more adequately a reflection of yourself.
Do NOT feel sorry for those sick bastards... they were GLEEFULLY stealing retirements and futures until the very last second, even LONG after they KNEW the FBI/SEC were closing in... Tednewsom wondered about their motivation, how could they have been put, or put themselves, into such a situation.... I too have tried to comprehend, and thought there might be SOME possibility that they were 'victims' of SOME sort. But, go back and read some of the posts on this forum, and in the official reports now about the very end of this saga... They are just literally sick sociopaths who find joy in destruction... No compassion for them.... none... at.... all..... and while I feel like ranting.... I DO have compassion for the victims, and always have, you had your HUMAN-NESS taken advantage of. Humans like to, HAVE to, BELIEVE in things, we're just built that way. We're essentially just completely irrational, chemical computers walking around motivated solely by emotions of one sort or another all day long. That doesn't mean we're not CAPABLE of logic (making decisions, taking actions, arguing) based solely on objective evidence, we just don't always do it, and that's ok. Enjoying music isn't logical, dreaming of being an astronaut or president isn't 'rational' for most of us, 'believing' in your favorite <insert whatever you want here>, is by definition not logical, but it's what makes us all human. You would never tell a little girl to not dream of being President, etc... . No, the real problems creep in when you actually take action, stake out positions in heated arguments, etc. based SOLELY on beliefs instead of objective evidence. But, because you're human, it's very easy to get you to do exactly that. You have to work at questioning yourself all the time before you take serious actions: "am I REALLY being objective on this, or am I ignoring some inconvenient truths?".... Like: just because Joel/Ed's charade had many similarities to a legitimate business, that was not, and never was PROOF that it was legitimate. The proof of the previous sentence was there to be found in the stories of all the OTHER ATM scams that got busted: they TOO looked like a real business, but turned out to be scams..... I wish a great many people in this world could take this lesson to heart and apply it to their whole life. There is monumental strife and suffering in this world caused solely by people taking DRASTIC actions based solely on 'BELIEFS'....... and victimizers like Joel and Ed need to be sitting in a jail cell where they can't hurt anybody else.Reader wrote: I feel sorrow for everyone involved, including Joel, ....
Exactly.ATM'd wrote:Just as a point of interest. We keep hearing about a scam totalling $123 million.
That number was from an early report which stated that $123 million had been taken in from January 2013 to mid 2014.
I think we're going to find that this scheme totalled over $360 million. That's 30,000 machines at (only) $12,000 each over the duration of the scam. Not just from January 2013 forward.