What to do if you know people who may get duped

[davids]

I have a mortgage based legal practice, and often persons that know me, or that know someone who knows me, will come to me to consult or try to retain me on matters. Quite often these people don't retain me as they have no money left, don't have a good case, or didn't get told "what they want to hear."

Because of this I know of some who have been pitched by / marketed to /serenaded by (and hopefully not duped by) certain sov-cit based schemes. I thought I would just put it out there - how would you, or have you, have dealt with such information? Not talking legal ethics here but just practical, what would or did you do when you found out a sov cit was trying to sell nonsense to an acquaintance of yours?

Admins - If this is the wrong forum to ask this, please fee free to move it.

[Hyrion]

I think all you can really do is point out the reality of the situation, what it can end up costing them (not just financial, but in terms of a criminal record etc as well) and hope they decide to listen to reason.

Having a family member that buys into conspiracy theories I can testify that nothing I've done has helped him see reason. Ultimately all I can do is sit back, hope he doesn't harm others or is harmed by the theories he decided to follow, and wait until such time as he realizes the real truth behind the various theories he's chosen to believe.

[Patriotdiscussions]

Research the theories and prove them wrong. However be forewarned that only a person who holds a belief can change that belief.

[Fmotlgroupie]

I think that two approaches which may work in some cases are:
1) there's no such thing as a free lunch. I think even many believers have, deep down, a realization that it makes no sense that everyone can run up credit card bills and magic them away, or buy a house without paying for it.
2) the complete ridiculousness of TPTB creating a dirty, corrupt system of laws and courts to oppress the common man AND building in a clause that if you speak the magic words (or send the magic letters) the horrible nasty system will let you do whatever you want.

[Patriotdiscussions]

I think that two approaches which may work in some cases are:
1) there's no such thing as a free lunch. I think even many believers have, deep down, a realization that it makes no sense that everyone can run up credit card bills and magic them away, or buy a house without paying for it.
2) the complete ridiculousness of TPTB creating a dirty, corrupt system of laws and courts to oppress the common man AND building in a clause that if you speak the magic words (or send the magic letters) the horrible nasty system will let you do whatever you want.

1. What? No free lunch? Man tell that to the banks that practice fractional reserve banking, who create money with a stoke on a keyboard. I can not name one time a bank has loaned money, can you? Not money of account, name the last time a bank loaned out money of exchange.

2. Correct because this has never happened in the whole history of man, and even if it did, everyone knows history never strikes twice.

[Judge Roy Bean]

...

1. What? No free lunch? Man tell that to the banks that practice fractional reserve banking, who create money with a stoke on a keyboard. I can not name one time a bank has loaned money, can you? ...

Yes. Overnight loans. And that's just one instance.

[NYGman]

My 1000 ft view of this, has to do with conspiracy theories in general, and more specifically secret programs that derive the participant a monetary benefit.

It is Human nature to want to exert the minimum amount of effort for the maximum return. The ultimate manifestation of this is getting something for nothing. We want in on anything that purports to give us a discount or better yet, a freebie. The fact that there could be something out there that those in the know may be using to get something for free/reduced price, is a very tempting draw. Offering a free taste of the plan, with guru's preaching their special knowledge, only available from this guru, and testimonials praising said Guru's techniques, with lists of "wins" of "free/reductions", and offering someone all the secrets for a low price, becomes very tempting.

Here is the thing, Humans can not keep secrets, The Internet is a double edged sword. It provides an outlet for these people to market their snake oil, but also provide resources to debunk these experts. Teh Internet does a great job of making information available. If this really worked, you would have Hundreds of thousands of people posting their success in court and their clean title, but I have yet to see anything like that, more the opposite, with people loosing their homes.

At the end of the day, something this good, if it worked, would be used by everyone. It would be public knowledge, it would fill up your Facebook and Twitter feeds. It would make the news, the news papers, magazines, etc. This is not only true for mortgage eliminations products, but some of the medical quackery being sold/marketed, and anything to do with penny stocks.

However, it any conspiracy theory was true, and people could borrow money from a bank but didn't need to repay, would banks ever loan money? would money not loose its value and become meaningless. Would this not kill financial markets and business who would no longer be able to rely on debt to fund business or expansion. With respect to loans, I think this says it best:

Polonius:
Neither a borrower nor a lender be, For loan oft loses both itself and friend, And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.

-Hamlet Act 1, scene 3, 75–77

To conclude, the old adage still holds true, in that you can't get something for nothing. If you borrowed money to buy something, and can not afford to pay it back, you need to either give back the security or refinance the terms to afford the payments. Better yet, don't borrow for things you can't really afford (And Banks should be more careful lending to people who really can't afford the debt).

If any of these things worked, you can bet this would be big news. How would it be possible to keep a secret like this?

[AndyK]

1. What? No free lunch? Man tell that to the banks that practice fractional reserve banking, who create money with a stoke on a keyboard. I can not name one time a bank has loaned money, can you? Not money of account, name the last time a bank loaned out money of exchange.

2. Correct because this has never happened in the whole history of man, and even if it did, everyone knows history never strikes twice.

PD has just done us a favor by providing a perfect example of the mindset being discussed.

For example, his #1 comment. Although the "creating money" theory has been discussed, explained, and rebutted numerous times on this board; PD persists in clinging to it. He refuses to accept the simple concept that, once the loan is repaid, all the "created money" becomes uncreated. He refuses to comprehent the basic concepts of fractional reserve banking.

As with PD, the I-wanna-believe folks put on blinders and filter out everything which doesn't support their conclusions.

[Gregg]

The creation of money is mechanically achieved by people working to enhance the economic value of a resource. You work and produce something that produces a profit and you get paid for it, that is the act of creation of money, you pay the bank back the money you borrowed, and that balances the account in the economy as a whole because they "printed" the money in advance to loan it to you...only it kind of decouples there because the money they "printed" (or "created with a keystroke") isn't the money you are going to create per se, its the money that was created when they thing you borrowed it for was made more valuable in commerce by the people who worked, and produced something that produced a profit, and you bought....

and the simple minded among us just cannot grasp the details of that not so complicated concept.

Of course, most people don't need to know the details insofar as they're convinced the money "created by a keystroke" was real enough when they got to drive the car off the lot, or move into the house or whatever.

[davids]

Of course, most people don't need to know the details insofar as they're convinced the money "created by a keystroke" was real enough when they got to drive the car off the lot, or move into the house or whatever.

Yes, true enough...however when one is dealing with an individual who has their house on the line, they put on the rose colored glasses, and fail to see that they didn't pay the mortgage for 3 years (oops!) but instead focus on the bad information they got in one phone call from the bank, or on the poorly written document they received, or whatever else is wrong with the process. I'm not saying there aren't valuable and credible claims out there - there are.

But it seems the scammers present not a solution to the problem as it is "in reality" but rather to the problem as the homeowner in distress wants to see it...so you get theories about how "all" or nearly all mortgages are bad/naughty/fraudulent and from there, the rationalization to take it a step further and just listen to the guru's direction is easily achieved. Not sure what I can do about it, will just watch them flounder.

[Patriotdiscussions]

1. What? No free lunch? Man tell that to the banks that practice fractional reserve banking, who create money with a stoke on a keyboard. I can not name one time a bank has loaned money, can you? Not money of account, name the last time a bank loaned out money of exchange.

2. Correct because this has never happened in the whole history of man, and even if it did, everyone knows history never strikes twice.

PD has just done us a favor by providing a perfect example of the mindset being discussed.

For example, his #1 comment. Although the "creating money" theory has been discussed, explained, and rebutted numerous times on this board; PD persists in clinging to it. He refuses to accept the simple concept that, once the loan is repaid, all the "created money" becomes uncreated. He refuses to comprehent the basic concepts of fractional reserve banking.

As with PD, the I-wanna-believe folks put on blinders and filter out everything which doesn't support their conclusions.

Yes I totally fail to comprehend it, tell me professor, where does the interest (that they don't create) come from?

No need to, I already know the perpetual borrowing to pay back interest not created scam.


If all the loans were called in right now, would there be money or debt left after EVERY single cent in existence went to the bank?

[Patriotdiscussions]

The creation of money is mechanically achieved by people working to enhance the economic value of a resource. You work and produce something that produces a profit and you get paid for it, that is the act of creation of money, you pay the bank back the money you borrowed, and that balances the account in the economy as a whole because they "printed" the money in advance to loan it to you...only it kind of decouples there because the money they "printed" (or "created with a keystroke") isn't the money you are going to create per se, its c the money that was created when they thing you borrowed it for was made more valuable in commerce by the people who worked, and produced something that produced a profit, and you bought....

And yet I'm the one who don't understand.

Making and selling a product is not money creation, it is wealth creation, there is a difference, and unlike you folks I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you know the difference.

Let me ask this, it is true that money is destroyed when loans are paid off, however the question is this... Where does the money come from that I pay as interest on my loan?

Since banks ONLY create the principal and never the interest, where does one get the money to pay off the interest?

Lets start at the very first loan, there is no dollars anywhere on earth, and only one place to get them from, the fed bank.

Now, lets say I borrowed five bucks(which they create), but I owe them 6.50 back (5 buck principal plus a buck fifty in interest), now if they only create the principal how can I ever pay off the loan?

What's that you say? Someone else comes along and borrows five bucks as well? So now there is 10 dollars in the system, but 13 owed eh? Well I guess if I could recapture my principal(which I spent on a taco btw), and capture a buck fifty of the other loans principal then I could pay off my loan, but the other guy defaults, unless more and more loans get issues every year.

Reminds me of what loans are doing right this very second.

Without more loans being taken out, and old loans being paid off, the money supply shrinks, thus leaving less money for the rest of the loans out there.

Shit aint rocket science brother, principal is created, interest is not. Debt is growing at an exponential rate.

and the simple minded among us just cannot grasp the details of that not so complicated concept.

Of course, most people don't need to know the details insofar as they're convinced the money "created by a keystroke" was real enough when they got to drive the car off the lot, or move into the house or whatever.

That's the problem right there, spending your whole life chasing it, don't know a damn thing about it.

Tell me this, I know it could never happen, but what would happen to people holding dollars(frn's) or dollar donaminated assets like 401k's,iras,stocks,bonds,etc if the dollar collapsed or even just lost the petrol dollar reserve status?

[Patriotdiscussions]

Of course, most people don't need to know the details insofar as they're convinced the money "created by a keystroke" was real enough when they got to drive the car off the lot, or move into the house or whatever.

Yes, true enough...however when one is dealing with an individual who has their house on the line, they put on the rose colored glasses, and fail to see that they didn't pay the mortgage for 3 years (oops!) but instead focus on the bad information they got in one phone call from the bank, or on the poorly written document they received, or whatever else is wrong with the process. I'm not saying there aren't valuable and credible claims out there - there are.

But it seems the scammers present not a solution to the problem as it is "in reality" but rather to the problem as the homeowner in distress wants to see it...so you get theories about how "all" or nearly all mortgages are bad/naughty/fraudulent and from there, the rationalization to take it a step further and just listen to the guru's direction is easily achieved. Not sure what I can do about it, will just watch them flounder.

It seemed the forensic mortgage inspection business was booming. Forgetting about the whole robo signing scandel, I have seen too many cases of no note, no recording of the transfer,usury rates,etc.

[Hyrion]

Where does the money come from that I pay as interest on my loan?

You don't know where the money comes from? You don't have a job?

If the debt is $50 with a $10 interest amount and you earn $10 per hour, instead of working to pay off the debt in 5 hours, you work 6. That's where the money comes from to pay the interest on your loan: your wealth/prosperity generation efforts.

[wserra]

Enough about fractional reserve banking. Not that it isn't an interesting subject, and one with which someone who considers himself informed should be familiar, but we've done it before. A couple of years ago, Gregg wrote a longer version of his above post concerning the interplay between fractional reserve and the Fed. I copied that post - actually, those posts - when Gregg made them to hand out (attributed, of course) to folks who need a good but simplified explanation. It is still my reference standard.

davids started the thread with a very good question - how to stop the horse from drinking the Koolaid instead of the water. Further posts about banking are subject to deletion.

[AndyK]

Yes I totally fail to comprehend it, tell me professor, where does the interest (that they don't create) come from?

No need to, I already know the perpetual borrowing to pay back interest not created scam.

If all the loans were called in right now, would there be money or debt left after EVERY single cent in existence went to the bank?

Have you watched It's A Wonderful Life recently?

It gives an excellent example of money creation and where the money is.

But to simplify things: If all outstanding lonas are called in and repaid AND all the deopsits in the banks were repaid to the depositors, two things would happen:

1 - There wouldn't be enough currency (FRNs) to pay all the depositors. There just isn't that much printed money out there. However, that doesn't cause a problem with the existing banking / economic system because the vast majority of people live happily with checks, electronic payments, etc.

2 - The banks would end up with their books balanced, no money in their vaults, and everyone satisfied. EXCEPT the borrowers who had to suddenly repay their loans, the bank employees who wouldn't have jobs, the people who invested in (bought stock) the banks since their investments would now be worth zero, for starters.

Pathetic Dissembling refuses to accept that he is wrong in just about everything. Unfortunately, he keeps posting misinformation where others might read it and become misled.

[Gregg]

Enough about fractional reserve banking. Not that it isn't an interesting subject, and one with which someone who considers himself informed should be familiar, but we've done it before. A couple of years ago, Gregg wrote a longer version of his above post concerning the interplay between fractional reserve and the Fed. I copied that post - actually, those posts - when Gregg made them to hand out (attributed, of course) to folks who need a good but simplified explanation. It is still my reference standard.

davids started the thread with a very good question - how to stop the horse from drinking the Koolaid instead of the water. Further posts about banking are subject to deletion.

Not to tempt your wrath, but that is one of the better threads on Quatloos, I have long considered it one my favorite contributions to the site, and I'm a little flattered that you use my posts as a reference.

[Prof]

Replying to comments from the fringe about fractional reserve banking and "money on/of account" and creation of money is a waste of time. To quote the science fiction writer, Robert Heinlein, from the novel Time Enough for Love: " Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

[Patriotdiscussions]

Yes I totally fail to comprehend it, tell me professor, where does the interest (that they don't create) come from?

No need to, I already know the perpetual borrowing to pay back interest not created scam.

If all the loans were called in right now, would there be money or debt left after EVERY single cent in existence went to the bank?

Have you watched It's A Wonderful Life recently?

It gives an excellent example of money creation and where the money is.

But to simplify things: If all outstanding lonas are called in and repaid AND all the deopsits in the banks were repaid to the depositors, two things would happen:

1 - There wouldn't be enough currency (FRNs) to pay all the depositors. There just isn't that much printed money out there. However, that doesn't cause a problem with the existing banking / economic system because the vast majority of people live happily with checks, electronic payments, etc.

2 - The banks would end up with their books balanced, no money in their vaults, and everyone satisfied. EXCEPT the borrowers who had to suddenly repay their loans, the bank employees who wouldn't have jobs, the people who invested in (bought stock) the banks since their investments would now be worth zero, for starters.

Pathetic Dissembling refuses to accept that he is wrong in just about everything. Unfortunately, he keeps posting misinformation where others might read it and become misled.

Interesting post. Now should I take what you have to say as truth or should I listen to a fed bank manager, who I am sure you will agree more then likely knows a lot more then you?

"If all the bank loans were paid, no one could have a bank deposit, and there would not be a dollar of coin or currency in circulation. This is a staggering thought. We are completely dependent on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash, or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system. When one gets a complete grasp of the picture, the tragic absurdity of our hopeless situation is almost incredible -- but there it is."

Robert Hemphill. Credit Manager, Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta
In the foreword to a book by Irving Fisher, entitled 100% Money (1935)

[wserra]

An excellent example of why not to feed trolls.

I would with no hesitation at all delete the above post. However, in fairness to the poster - and yes, even trolls are entitled to fairness - I can't unless I also delete AndyK's post. AndyK PM'ed me, writing that he didn't see my post above it, in which I said that these off-topic posts are subject to deletion. He also expressed the concern that, left unanswered, nonsense might mislead those who don't know better. I agree that is a concern. However, when we have dealt with something many times before, I suggest that posting a link is more appropriate than beginning the same conversation again.

Now: any more posts in this thread about banking will be deleted without further ado.