Looking for information ...

ASITStands · Post by **ASITStands** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:16 pm

Looking for information on Winston Shrout and Sam Kennedy.

They seem to have taken up where Barton Buhtz left off. They are conducting seminars (online, offline) touting the use of a bond to offset debts, including income taxes.

It appears they invoke some sort of Treasury Account by writing a bond against it. I've always been unsure where they get this stuff.

Looking for cases where the issues have been litigated, etc. Or, any statute that refutes this idea everything is commercial.

Thanks. I realize this is Van Pelt stuff, but I'm not sure in my mind how it all supposedly works.

Post by **notorial dissent** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:55 am

ASITStands, while I don’t pretend to be an expert, or lord knows want to be, on this bunch of nonsense, I can give you some of the highlights.

What they are basically doing is a variation of the old BOE/sight draft/warrant on the treasury scam. Out of some piece of whole cloth have come up with the idea that an individual has a right to use an account that is created at birth and based on the SSN to pay off debts. I have heard varying amounts, but they are all large sums of money that the “sovereign individual” can just claim if they can just get control of their “strawman/corporate identity” away from the gov’t/ebil bankers/fill in the blanks. The only two bits of reality interjected into this fantasy are the financial instruments, they do exist, and the account they usually insist they are drawing against, a Treasury Direct Account, this too exists, but is a money purchase account used by the treasury to sell paper to high dollar buyers, it takes big bucks to have one, and it is one way only. Individuals CANNOT write anything against any kind of account at the Treasury, they simply do not exist.

This is a variation on the draft scam that Leroy Sweitzer and his crowd were writing back in the 70's???? during the posse comitatus and farm credit crisis. They took a lot of people for a lot of money with their bogus drafts, and this is just a variation on it. Incidently, Merrill the gibberish generator was peripherally involved in that and did some jail time over it, so he truly is an expert.

They have generated a whole mythology about this, and the clueless think it is the great panacea to their problems, until the Feds come after them for issuing fraudulent paper against a Federal entity, a serious felony aside from the fraud attributes. Shrout makes a lot of money selling his snake oil to the faithful and a lot of them are doing hard time for using it.

ASITStands · Post by **ASITStands** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:41 pm

Thanks. Good synopsis. I knew most of this, but it's good to know where all the pieces lie when you're trying to reconstruct a scam.

Where can a person get information about the Treasury Direct Account? Or, information to combat the wrongful use perpetrated by these folks? Or, the legitimate use of Bills of Exchange?

And, specific cases on people doing time, or people under indictment or charged, would be good. I'm following the Buhtz issue, but I can't find anything against Shrout.

Of course, those involved in this stuff say, "Elvick did it wrong. Or, Schweitzer did it wrong, etc." I suspect the next thing will be the same claim against Buhtz.

I've tried following threads on Sui Juris but it's all so strange.

iamfreeru2 · Post by **iamfreeru2** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:51 pm

You guys need to get your facts straight. Neither one of you have a clue as to what is going on. The synopsis that ND gave is total nonsense and could not be further from the truth.

Post by **Demosthenes** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:55 pm

iamfreeru2 wrote:You guys need to get your facts straight. Neither one of you have a clue as to what is going on. The synopsis that ND gave is total nonsense and could not be further from the truth.

Prove it.

iamfreeru2 · Post by **iamfreeru2** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:10 pm

You want proof attend a seminar. I know Sam welcomes agents. Quit spewing lies about what is or is not being done. If you want to know what is happening get it from the horse instead of regurgitating garbage. But I forgot, none of you are interested in the truth now are you?

Post by **Prof** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:28 pm

iamfreeru2 wrote:You want proof attend a seminar. I know Sam welcomes agents. Quit spewing lies about what is or is not being done. If you want to know what is happening get it from the horse instead of regurgitating garbage. But I forgot, none of you are interested in the truth now are you?

As Notorial Dissent points out, this crap is made up of whole cloth. It also folds in a lot of UCC nonsense -- which is just nonsense.

Iamfreetu2 should know that not one person has ever successfully used any of this garbage. Creditors may have just given up on some on these judgment proof nuts, but no lawyer ever ran away from these specious "legal" arguments, and no judge ever bought one of these arguments and no statute or common law principle ever supported this silliness.

Post by **wserra** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:35 pm

ND - the only place I differ with you is that a TreasuryDirect account does not take "big bucks" to open. See 31 CFR 363.11 - basically, anyone can open one (while I don't have one, I know people who do). They are quite convenient for those who intend to hold government securities to maturity. You are certainly right about the use of the account - it is usable only to trade in government securities, and in fact requires an account at a commercial bank for use in electronic transfers.

The rest is Sooey Hooey (tm).

Post by **Demosthenes** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:36 pm

iamfreeru2 wrote:You want proof attend a seminar. I know Sam welcomes agents. Quit spewing lies about what is or is not being done. If you want to know what is happening get it from the horse instead of regurgitating garbage. But I forgot, none of you are interested in the truth now are you?

No proof, just insults. As I suspected.

Post by **wserra** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:42 pm

ASITStands wrote:the legitimate use of Bills of Exchange?

A "bill of exchange" is just an old term for a draft - an unconditional written order to pay a certain amount on a certain day to a certain person (or on demand). It was mainly used in international trade before the existence of a worldwide banking system. Nothing in the least bit magical.

I've tried following threads on Sui Juris

Why in the world would you do that? You'll get cooties.

Post by **LPC** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:42 pm

iamfreeru2 wrote:You want proof attend a seminar.

Sorry, but listening to a guy spouting nonsense is not "proof."

"Proof" is statutes, court decisions, or published academic writings showing that the claims have some validity and basis in law, and are not fabrications and gibberish.

There was a newspaper article some years ago that I wished I had saved. Some judge in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, had the misfortune to get a case involving "sovereign citizens" who had formed "common law courts," and he was quoted in the newspaper as saying that he had read all their pleadings and had really tried to understand what they were saying, but that it really was just gibberish.

Post by **Demosthenes** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:57 pm

Recent Shrout loss for trying to run a "Freeman" like scam.

The complaint:
http://www.cheatingfrenzy.com/shrout0.pdf

The judgment:
http://www.cheatingfrenzy.com/shrout1.pdf

Post by **Demosthenes** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:02 pm

Demosthenes wrote:Recent Shrout loss for trying to run a "Freeman" like scam.

The complaint:
http://www.cheatingfrenzy.com/shrout0.pdf

The judgment:
http://www.cheatingfrenzy.com/shrout1.pdf

Also, looks like Shrout declared bankruptcy in 2001.

Post by **Demosthenes** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:04 pm

The docket for another recent Shrout case:

United States District Court
District of Nevada (Las Vegas)
CIVIL DOCKET FOR CASE #: 2:03-cv-01048-LRH-PAL

WINSTON SHROUT v. RONALD APFELBAUM, et al.
Assigned to: Judge Larry R. Hicks
Referred to: Magistrate Judge Peggy A. Leen
Date Filed: 08/29/2003
Date Terminated: 12/18/2003
Jury Demand: None
Nature of Suit: 190 Contract: Other
Jurisdiction: Diversity
Plaintiff
Winston Shrout represented by Winston Shrout
545 Alecandro Daniel Ave.
North Las Vegas, NV 89031
PRO SE

V.

Defendant
Ronald Apfelbaum represented by Kathryn Holt
Nevada Attorney General's Office
555 E. Washington Ave
Suite 3900
Las Vegas, NV 89101-
702-486-3420
Fax: 702-486-3768
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Defendant
CEO University of Utah represented by Kathryn Holt
(See above for address)
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

Date Filed # Docket Text
08/29/2003 1 MOTION FOR MISCELLANEOUS RELIEF APPLICATION to proceed i/f/p obo P(DISPO: ord #2 GRNTD (Entered: 09/04/2003)
08/29/2003 MISCELLANEOUS DOCUMENT Complaint obo P (Entered: 09/04/2003)
09/04/2003 MISCELLANEOUS DOCUMENT Bond for commercial notc of amended cmplt bill in equity obo P (Entered: 09/04/2003)
09/24/2003 2 ORDER ON REPORT AND RECOMMENDATIONS ORD: App for IFP #1 GRNTD. P does not have to pay filing fee; FUR ORD: Clrk to fl cmplt; IT IS RECOMMENDED that cmplt be DSMSSD. cps dis (Entered: 09/24/2003)
09/24/2003 3 COMPLAINT Commercial notc of amnd'd cmplt in Bill in Equity obo P. (Entered: 09/24/2003)
10/02/2003 SUMMONS ISSUED to P (2) (Entered: 10/02/2003)
10/17/2003 4 SUMMONS RETURNED EXECUTED as to Ronald Apfelbaum by serv clk at place of business on 10/8/03 (Entered: 10/20/2003)
10/17/2003 5 SUMMONS RETURNED EXECUTED as to CEO, University of Utah Med Cntr by serv clk at place of business on 10/8/03 (Entered: 10/20/2003)
10/28/2003 6 MOTION FOR MISCELLANEOUS RELIEF EXPARTE MOTION for ext of time to rspnd to cmplt obo D (nss)(DISPO: granted #7 (Entered: 10/28/2003)
11/04/2003 7 ORDER ORDER exparte mtn for ext of time (#6) granted; rspnse to cmplt cue 11/17/03. cpys dist. (Entered: 11/04/2003)
11/18/2003 8 MOTION TO DISMISS by Dfts. (m)DISPO: afdt (#9), oppo (#11) (Entered: 11/18/2003)
11/24/2003 9 AFFIDAVIT of Kathryn Holt obo Ds re mtn to dism (#8) (Entered: 11/25/2003)
12/01/2003 10 NOTICE (OTHER) to Ct of irregularities of Ct Officers obo P (nss) (Entered: 12/01/2003)
12/01/2003 11 MISCELLANEOUS DOCUMENT no text (Entered: 12/01/2003)
12/08/2003 12 MOTION FOR MISCELLANEOUS RELIEF by Plf for entry of dflt. (nss)DISPO: (Entered: 12/19/2003)
12/18/2003 13 ORDER that r&r (#2) is adopted and Plf's complaint is dism. Dft's mtn to dism (#8) is granted. Clerk shall close file. (cps dist) (Entered: 12/19/2003)

Post by **Demosthenes** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:06 pm

The complaint in the last case I posted:

http://www.cheatingfrenzy.com/shrout3.pdf

Post by **Demosthenes** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:15 pm

According to the financial filings in the bankruptcy case, Shrout's only income for 1999 to 2001 was for construction work (he was a framer for a drywall company.) It's sad that he's moved into this scam since he has young children.

Post by **Demosthenes** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:18 pm

JUDGMENTS AND LIENS STATE OF NEVADA
CLARK COUNTY RECORDER (RD)
DEBTOR: SHROUT,WINSTON
ADDRESS: 1001 N MAIN ST #10
LAS VEGAS, NV 89101
CREDITOR: INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE
AMOUNT: $ 11,848
NUMBER: 200701040000285
TYPE: FEDERAL TAX LIEN
IRS Serial No. 334681206
ENTERED: 01/04/2007

DEBTOR: SHROUT,WINSTON
ADDRESS: 1001 N MAIN #10
LAS VEGAS, NV 89101
SSN/TAX ID: [redacted by moderator]
CREDITOR: IRS
AMOUNT: $ 37,858
NUMBER: 200509150000065
TYPE: FEDERAL TAX LIEN
IRS Serial No. 245793505
ENTERED: 09/15/2005

Post by **Demosthenes** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:32 pm

To watch a video of Winston in action:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7594353355

Post by **Demosthenes** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:35 pm

Keeping in mind the bankruptcy in 2001, the huge tax liens in 2005 and 2007, and the various civil losses in federal court in 2003, 2004, and 2006, here's Winston's bio from his website:

Winston Shrout Bio

Winston Shrout has established himself as one of, if not the, leading authority on the philosophy of Redemption in Law. For over a decade a great many researchers have spent countless thousands of hours in an attempt to understand the true nature of our present-day legal, banking and political systems. Winston Shrout since 1999 has spent the following years amassing a powerful understanding of law, banking and politics, and it is with such understanding that Winston commands a great deal of respect from anyone interested in the notion of freedom.

ASITStands · Post by **ASITStands** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:50 pm

LPC wrote:
iamfreeru2 wrote:You want proof attend a seminar.
Sorry, but listening to a guy spouting nonsense is not "proof."

"Proof" is statutes, court decisions, or published academic writings showing that the claims have some validity and basis in law, and are not fabrications and gibberish.

There was a newspaper article some years ago that I wished I had saved. Some judge in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, had the misfortune to get a case involving "sovereign citizens" who had formed "common law courts," and he was quoted in the newspaper as saying that he had read all their pleadings and had really tried to understand what they were saying, but that it really was just gibberish.

I can sympathize with the judge. That's kind of how I feel.

Thanks to 'wserra' and 'Demosthenes' for the links. I was aware of the bankruptcy and Nevada case but hadn't looked at all the documents yet. For some reason, I had not seen the Utah case.

As I said earlier, trying to sort it all out in my head.