ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Stock and Bond Fraud, including Boiler Rooms / Pump and Dump Schemes, Mutual Fund & Hedge Fund Fraud, FOREX scams, plus Churning, Private Placements, Venture and Bridge Funding, IPOs, Viaticals Fraud, HYIP and Prime Bank scams, MTNs, Historical Notes, Recovery Schemes, etc. Includes the Jim Norman Project and the Michael Dotson Project and similar HYIP scams.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by The Observer »

Tednewsom wrote:Can someone explain Exhibit 43 to me? Are these lists of presumed "Net Winners," people whose investment actually exceeded their investments?
I could find only one reference to Ex. 43 in the defense's brief in which it is described as "NASI Check Ledgers." This does not explain if it was compiled by the defense or by the receiver's office. And the only reason the defense is using it is to claim that the receiver's exhibit of net losers (Ex. 41) has problems with accuracy in terms of not including payments to investor's separate entities. This goes to the heart of their argument that the actual number of net winners is greater than the government has determined.
However, Mr. Ehrens also owned and operated Riviera Investments LP (Riviera). Riviera acted as a broker for NASI and also purchased its own machines. The contracts entered into between NASI and Riviera were signed by Mr. Ehrens, and payments between NASI and Riviera were paid to, and on behalf of, Mr. Ehrens and his wife. (See Ex. 42: NASI Contract with Riviera dated July 1, 2008, and Associated Check dated July 23, 2008.) Between 2007 and 2013, NASI paid Mr. Ehrens, via Riviera, $469,360. (See Ex. 43: NASI Check Ledgers.) However, none of those payments are incorporated into the governemnt’s [sic] loss analysis. Mr. Ehrens is therefore a net winner, whereas the government lists him to be a net loser.
So it appears that Ex. 43 is a recap of the check amounts that were issued by NASI to the investors. The exhibit does not provide one sum for each of the investors; the Riviera Investments LP has 8 separate entries that you would have to add together to get the total figure.

By the way, the defense only cites this one example where they claim the government is not accurate. The brief goes to the point of listing the contracts that the managing partner, Mr. Ehren, to imply that only Ehren and his wife received the payments made to Riviera, in addition to the monies they individually received from NASI. Unfortunately I don't see this as being conclusive. First, we know that NASI's accounting was worse than what a blind man with delirium tremens could have accomplished. I have doubts about all of the exhibits and reports coming out of the receiver's office, but only because they had garbage to work with. And those doubts work both ways in terms of what the defense is trying to claim.

Second, the fact that the defense could only cite one example of payments going to business entities that were owned or controlled by purported net losers. I would have thought that if there was any mileage in this claim, the defense would have provided a table of their own showing the exact entities and numbers to back this up. Either the defense was lazy or they already knew that exploring this claim would reveal more than they really wanted revealed.

Third, Ex. 41 shows that there were 3 separate Ehrens that invested in NASI. Besides Gerald & Wilma Ehrens, there was also a Gordon Ehrens, and a Jordan & Sharon Ehrens listed as separate investors, and net losers as well. I am presuming these were all related. The latter two received approximately $768,000 of their money back, and I had to wonder if those payments were paid through Riviera as well if they were limited partners. I had to consider this as a possibility since the Ehrens do not appear anywhere as recipients on Ex. 43, which they should have if they were receiving checks made out to them. The problem again is one of the accounting, or lack thereof, by NASI and what Joel and Ed were telling the receiver's office as they went through the check ledgers. I could see a possible scenario where Ed and Joel haphazardly issued checks to Riviera one month and then the next month to the individuals instead and still recorded it as a Riviera payment elsewhere. And we don't have a statement from Riviera for its own internal accounting to show what happened to the payments that Riviera received.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by webhick »

Ehrens is one of the investors who were sued in July. The payments were included from Riviera at this point, demonstrating that he's a net loser for $57k.

But wait, there's more! He was also paid aver $2m in commissions between his person, Amgest Ltd (a Nevada corporation) and First Abby Corp (a Delaware corporation). He's now a net winner for close to $2m.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

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So the defense team was not aware of these other companies? But the receiver was?

This makes me wonder if all of the entities receiving payments were identified by the receiver's office by who actually owned them. I wonder why this wasn't cross-referenced on the exhibits as well.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

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The Observer wrote:So the defense team was not aware of these other companies? But the receiver was?
I think the issue is two-fold. 1. Joel's math probably indicates that Ehrens is not a net loser, since he re-invested his ill-gotten gains. 2. Joel is ignoring the commissions, which is all those two companies brought in.
This makes me wonder if all of the entities receiving payments were identified by the receiver's office by who actually owned them. I wonder why this wasn't cross-referenced on the exhibits as well.
The exhibits are out of date. I don't doubt that the Receiver has provided more recent ones but Joel chose to show only the old ones in order to strengthen his argument.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by notorial dissent »

I think relying on Joel's math skills is somewhat problematic dontcha think????

I would also suspect that he chose his examples with the intention of throwing the best light possible on himself rather than showing the truth. We already know that their definitions tend to veer sharply from reality, so I wouldn't give them too much leverage with the court. It does show a certain amount though about his thinking processes. Nothing complimentary mind.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by The Observer »

I am not sure if the defense team is solely relying on Joel's math skills, or are just being obtuse hoping to slide one by the court. And since the receiver's office had to rely, in part on Joel's math, I am not sure we are ever going to get to the bottom of anything, let alone who are really net winners or losers in this mess.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by worried »

I spotted something interesting in the list of payments to people (such as the 'Riviera Investment L.P.' that is the subject under discussion)... right after 'Riviera' is 'Shirley Reisman'... the same as the person who logged a complaint on a website 2 yrs ago:

http://listings.findthecompany.com/l/22 ... labasas-CA
"Disgruntled Investor
Now that I'm ready to withdraw my initial investment I find that Joel responds neither to my certified letter nor my phone calls.

Has anyone experienced this problem?"


That was 2 years ago. Yet, she was continuing to get paid all the way up to the scam getting busted, and she's NOT on the 'loss list'... so, just as I surmised when I first spotted her post a couple months after she posted it, she DID get a prompt response from Joel and ended up in 'winner territory'... which is really, in the end, not a bad thing to have done, ESPECIALLY if she kept her 'winnings' in cash so she could take advantage of the Receiver's deal AND contribute to the Receiver's intake of funds to help out the losers. ... maybe she was cooperating with the SEC/FBI??... If she is sandbagging, spent it all, etc., well....
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by worried »

I just have to revisit this:
BeverlyHillsMan wrote:I know Joel Gillis personally, as well as his partner, Ed Wishner, as I have since 2004 when I was referred to NASI by a friend who already owned ATMs through them and was doing well. Let’s call him Adam (not his real name). I then bought 16 ATMs that began operation in January, 2005, for $12,000 apiece -- not $11,000, not $19,000. They have never been sold for any other price (at least since that time), no matter how many ATMs the investor buys -- no “quantity discounts.” Along with the monthly check from NASI, a transaction report is sent showing the number of transactions on every machine. I created a spreadsheet and have kept track of every single machine for every single month since then. That situation continued until the end of 2011, by which time I had long since recouped my original investment and was well into profit. I was then in a position to purchase substantially more ATMs. During the course of the next 18 months, I increased my position to 250 ATMs.

Before doing so, however, I did significant due diligence in 2011 on Joel and Ed and NASI. I saw these blogs (the ones that were written before then, at least) but I observed that they were nothing more than vague suspicions and innuendos based on no firsthand knowledge whatsoever. Nevertheless, they gave me the jitters. Are these cynical bloggers the sophisticated ones and am I the goat? .... Thus endeth the lesson.
On page 165/249, in the 'NASI Loss Analysis', there is an entry that HAS to be BeverlyHillsMan. Bought exactly 16 machines for $12k/ea prior to 2007 and many more AFTER 2007, up to a total of 260. So, BHM felt so sure of himself after writing his one and only rambling, but scathing and arrogant, post, he went out and bought 10 more machines.... In the far right column it shows that he is OUT $972,670,50....Thus endeth the lesson.

If only SomeYuppie had leaked more information about himself...

I shouldn't gloat like this, and it may very well be that BHM is well off enough that losing almost a $million doesn't hurt too much other than his apparently 'healthy' pride... I thought it might be interesting to people who have been following this from the beginning to know that it looks like BHM was real after all... I still think SY was too now as well.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

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worried wrote:On page 165/249, in the 'NASI Loss Analysis', there is an entry that HAS to be BeverlyHillsMan
One problem is that it was established that the post from BHM was not from an airport in Wisconsin as he claimed but here in the southern California area. So the alternative is that either Joel, Ed or some other NASI minion ran with the purchase stats of one of their big investors and pretended to be him in an effort to derail the debunking over here. The BHM poster disappeared very quickly after James and Ted started deconstructing his story and pointing out the holes in it. My suspicion is that whoever "BHM" really was, they realized that strategy backfired on them and decided to cut their losses.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by worried »

The Observer wrote:
worried wrote:On page 165/249, in the 'NASI Loss Analysis', there is an entry that HAS to be BeverlyHillsMan
One problem is that it was established that the post from BHM was not from an airport in Wisconsin as he claimed but here in the southern California area. So the alternative is that either Joel, Ed or some other NASI minion ran with the purchase stats of one of their big investors and pretended to be him in an effort to derail the debunking over here. The BHM poster disappeared very quickly after James and Ted started deconstructing his story and pointing out the holes in it. My suspicion is that whoever "BHM" really was, they realized that strategy backfired on them and decided to cut their losses.
hmmm... good point... except for the denial of the $19.8k price... wouldn't that alarm the people who actually DID pay the $19.8k price? And don't forget that Joel himself quoted a $20k price in that webzine article that a couple of us saw a couple of years ago and got pulled back up again by somebody on this thread. Or, was the denial of the other price really a very clever ploy to APPEAR as 'only' an individual investor who didn't have knowledge of other prices (SomeYuppie did the same thing)? I can't say that's impossible... well... I guess all I did then was find 'a' victim who matches the data in BHM's post, but, no proof... dang it...
...but... if someone was going to PRETEND to be a happy investor, why would they have to use actual data? They could have just made up some numbers. The numbers match that one entry in the list very, very well. But, I can't find any numbers that come close to the numbers for 'biggest investor', 'Ben' mentioned by BHM (who claims to know 'Ben'). So, one set of numbers is pretty much dead on, but not the other. And NEITHER set of numbers had to be correct if it was all a fabrication anyway.

As to catching BHM not posting from an airport in Wisconsin, it occurred to me that he just MIGHT have actually been sitting in that airport writing his dissertation, had to finish it on the airplane and logged back in to post it from somewhere in LA.... possible...

no proof either way... just morbid curiosity of the post-mortem analysis of this saga.... but I still like to THINK we know who BHM is ;-)... But, in the interest of fairness and the benefit of doubt, I haven't been saying the actual name, and I do note that the victim in question is obviously paying dearly for their mistake whether that mistake also included posting on a website or not. So, rather than trying to be vindictive to a victim, I'm just trying to find some verifiable truths in all the fog that we've read on these pages.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by Lost Income »

Thanks, you guys have put together some good info here.

We all know that a small biz can go under for many reasons. But the magnitude of criminal aspect and resulting monetary benefits to Joel & Ed are so obvious, that if the Receiver & Courts can't take back monies from what Joel & Ed have now and give then a reasonable prison sentence, than our legal system is just generating income for those people working for it.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by notorial dissent »

My suspicion is that regardless of how honest or otherwise Joel has been with his lawyers, they are trying to do the best the can for their client, and that would certainly include (re)-interpreting things to the benefit of Joel rather than the prosecution. Now, whether or not those re-interpretations are based on reality or wishful thinking remains yet to be seen.

The one trap in all this is the accuracy of the material the Receiver is putting forward, as any discrepancies or errors can produce some bad results. I think considering the quality of the records they had to start with is going to make it difficult, since the only thing they can reliably go with are the actual bank records, and if the sloppy bookkeeping carried over to how the checks were made out that can add to the confusion, and apparently has if I am reading some of the comments above correctly.

That being said, it does appear that they are making some headway, although it is difficult to tell how much and in what direction, at elast from what I've seen.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by The Observer »

worried wrote:...[H]mmm... good point...
Well, you had good points as well. Certainly there was no reason that, if someone was impersonating BHM, they had to go to the trouble of using his actual stats to do so. And it is quite possible that he did upload his response prepared in Wisconsin, once he got back to his hometown.

I think the only thing that we can rely on is that we will never know the full truth of what really happened with NASI.
notorial dissent wrote:My suspicion is that regardless of how honest or otherwise Joel has been with his lawyers, they are trying to do the best the can for their client...
Agreed, which is why their sentencing report really cannot be relied on by itself.
The one trap in all this is the accuracy of the material the Receiver is putting forward,...
Or as my old computer programming class taught me: "Garbage in, garbage out." Even internal audits of businesses, where there are established policies and protocols in place, can reveal a host of unknown or hidden problems that take months to untangle.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by notorial dissent »

Or worse, holes you didn't know existed, or holes you don't find. I have a feeling that the NASI books are full of holes, mostly of the black and rat variety from the sounds of it.

I hadn't thought much about it until recently, but there is the great big gaping hole of cash deposits that may be totally untraceable. If clients paid in cash, for whatever imaginable reason, and I can imagine several actually, they may never know what came in and went out, as I would bet most if not all of it ever actually showed up on the books.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by Lost Income »

I know someone that just retired, and after several conversations with Joel convincing him that everything about NAS was real, then sent Joel a check for several machines to help augment his retirement income. Joel cashed the check and then one week after sent the letter that NAS was going under and was in receivership. How many other people do you thing Joel & Ed blatantly did this to. So as I said, we're about to see just how capable our legal system really is, or if Joel & Ed will walk away with a slap on the wrist and keep what they stole.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by webhick »

Lost Income wrote:How many other people do you thing Joel & Ed blatantly did this to.
I finished keying in the victim list that was attached to Joel's rebuttal. There are a total of 8 people who sent NASI money and did not receive anything. It totals close to $600k. Of course, that list was generated in May, so it may have changed by now.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by Lost Income »

Thanks webhick. Hopefully the court will recognize this as further intent from Joel & Ed's to victimize as many people as possible for their benefit.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by The Observer »

It would be very important for these victims to provide the court with facts like these to show that Joel's apparent contriteness only developed after the scam went down and that he was cheating people up to the very last minute.
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by worried »

worried wrote:I spotted something interesting in the list of payments to people (such as the 'Riviera Investment L.P.' that is the subject under discussion)... right after 'Riviera' is 'Shirley Reisman'... the same as the person who logged a complaint on a website 2 yrs ago:

http://listings.findthecompany.com/l/22 ... labasas-CA
"Disgruntled Investor
Now that I'm ready to withdraw my initial investment I find that Joel responds neither to my certified letter nor my phone calls.

Has anyone experienced this problem?"


That was 2 years ago. Yet, she was continuing to get paid all the way up to the scam getting busted, and she's NOT on the 'loss list'... so, just as I surmised when I first spotted her post a couple months after she posted it, she DID get a prompt response from Joel and ended up in 'winner territory'... which is really, in the end, not a bad thing to have done, ESPECIALLY if she kept her 'winnings' in cash so she could take advantage of the Receiver's deal AND contribute to the Receiver's intake of funds to help out the losers. ... maybe she was cooperating with the SEC/FBI??... If she is sandbagging, spent it all, etc., well....

I have to edit this mildly interesting story about one of the victims:
I looked at the payments to her in Exhibit 43 and it looks like she only owned 1 'ATM', payments must have started sometime in early 2007 and continued all the way up to the last month, the totals for each year:
2007: 2030.50
2008: 2364.00
2009: 2703.00
2010: 2774.00
2011: 2560.40
2012: 2469.50
2013: 2607.00
2014: 1250.50 (Jan-Jul)
2014: 220.50 (Aug)

So, it looks like after complaining online in mid-2013, she did NOT get her principal back, she just kept getting checks and figured that was good enough. I wonder if she had any communication with Joel or Ed from mid-2013 to Aug 2014? She's probably also quietly ignoring the Receiver's communications to her figuring she's too small to go after. ....

In fact, looking at the list there appears to be MANY 'victims' like that, started before Jan '07 and stayed small until the end... hmm.... that would be a GREAT way for Joel/Ed to hide money: pay it out to a few hundred fake 'investors' who are all too small for the Receiver to bother with. Remember the Receiver identified only 20 'winners' that were big enough to go after ($17M in clawbackable funds). Maybe some of those fake 'investors' are actually third parties who (as TedNewsom has suggested might be possible) were extorting from Joel/Ed. Ed was the accountant who would know how to do all this stuff.... but, now I'm wandering into conspiracy theory... but wouldn't that be amazing that they pulled something like that off? That would explain their smugness at the end AND their seemingly fanatical devotion to continuing to pay 'investors' to the bitter end (which has always bothered me).... Leave really BAD books behind, make sure there are THOUSANDS of 'victims' to sort through, pay a really good lawyer, get a short time in jail and then, after the spotlight has moved on, go tap into the spoils... somebody stop me before I blame them for 9/11...

It's a good thing Shirley didn't get greedy, right? Same for all those other 'victims' who never bought more than 1 or 2 or 3 'ATMs', despite all those years of steady payments at 20+%.... wow.... I would never have guessed there would be so many ponzi victims out there with that kind of self-discipline...
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Re: ATM LEASEBACK SCHEMES-- any insight?

Post by Tednewsom »

There's some nice logic to back up that idea. While the secondary and tertiary salespeople (those with direct employee- or freelance payment from NASI, and "happy" investors who work on referral commissions) scrounge around for people who'd buy one or two phantom machines, Joel's scurrying around looking for high rollers who'll buy 5, 10, or 50 at a time. Neat sales benefit: Gillis could point out the hundreds of happy customers to the high rollers, and even pass their contact info on. Mr. High Roller has some doubt, calls 3 or 4, or 10 or twelve satisfied low level customers, he's convinced, and hands over a half million bucks.