license to drive vs 'drivers license'

[Pottapaug1938]

Farmer Giles on Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:03 pm

I dont think there is any standard codified provision out there for "clearly explaining why".

Whether or not that's true, it's irrelevant. Your premise is like those of the Tax denier idiots who while that there is no law making anyone liable to pay income tax. Certain concepts in the law are not codified because they are susceptible of "plain meaning" -- in other words, I don't need to have a codified standard for "clearly explaining why" in order to have some reasonable idea of what a clear explanation is.

so now youre saying there is no codified law making an income tax? i dont believe that, ive seen title 26 and it clearly says there is one imposed. anyway, there are only 2 classes of driver and all nonresidents qualify under the same mode, thats equal protection.

Farmer G -- I'm getting the impression that either your English is not that good, or you're playing the typical Sooey game of distorting the critical words of others. I did NOT say that "there is no codified law making an income tax". In may Quatloos postings, I have accepted that the validity of the income tax laws is beyond rational dispute. What I said -- and please read my words carefully -- is that there are people out there who claim that there is no law which makes regular people "liable" for the income tax. They do this because they are searching for a statute which says something like "all persons receiving income within the United States are liable to pay income tax thereon". They claim that, without such a law, no one is liable to pay income tax. Before you brush off the Tax Protestor FAQ so quickly, you might want to read it. It's the best antidote to Sooey idiocy that I know of.

[Farmer Giles]

The "right to travel" does not mean what you think it means. If you want elaboration, read Saenz v. Roe, 526 U.S. 489 (1999) (free Findlaw copy here). It has nothing to do with roads, and everything to do with the Privileges and Immunities Clause not permitting one state to erect barriers to citizens of another.

In fact I definitely agree with this. Thats is the original point made here, that the 'driving privilege' is indeed one of the "rights privileges and immunities" thats why every VC MUST and DOES admit qualified foreign drivers. the states cannot put up extraordinary barriers to normal activities like driving. Imagine if a State changed its law and said " everyone must havea Dl, no exceptions". That would be shot down in the Supreme Court as violating the Constitution. And if they were to exclude non USA drivers that would also be treading on federal territory.

and to treat some 'nonresidents' differently from other 'nonresidents' is also a violation of the Constitution, that gurantees everyone without exception due process and equal protection. the same standards and rules for the same class of person.

[wserra]

the question is what is the difference between a "valid license" and a "drivers license".

If we are referring only to driver's licenses, none, unless you're talking about a forgery. You might as well say, "what's the difference between a one-dollar bill and a valid one-dollar bill?"

all VC make the note that a DL is issued by that state, and the "valid license to operate" is a more general privilege.

"VC"? "Viet Cong"? What you may be referring to is what some states call a "privilege" to drive, which refers to drivers without a local license. I notice, BTW, that you have not posted a single case which holds that the so-called "right to travel" means that a state cannot require you to have a license.

if I must ill post links to VC's from CA, IL and PA, but its nothing new anyway. Also there is the text of the 1949 Geneva treaty on road traffic.

Ah. I guess "VC" must mean "vehicle code". Please post the sections which say you don't need a license to drive.

[Farmer Giles]

...
" it doest matter where i get my valid photo ID

It does. In almost all circumstances is must be a "government issued" ID.

the Supreme Court ruled in a California case that someones homemade ID was sufficient; the IDP itself is not a government issue product, and no foreign issued unhomologous document is a "govt issue ID". to say a "foreign DL" is a contradiction in terms.

[bmielke]

...
" it doest matter where i get my valid photo ID

It does. In almost all circumstances is must be a "government issued" ID.

the Supreme Court ruled in a California case that someones homemade ID was sufficient; the IDP itself is not a government issue product, and no foreign issued unhomologous document is a "govt issue ID". to say a "foreign DL" is a contradiction in terms.

CASE?!?

Added: We need Number and/or Parties names, I am not buying that. Corporate ID maybe a big maybe. But I don't believe Home made, unless it was a home school id or some such.

[wserra]

the 'driving privilege' is indeed one of the "rights privileges and immunities"

Cite?

thats why every VC MUST and DOES admit qualified foreign drivers

Like those with licenses, right? If that's not what you mean, please cite authority for the proposition that a state must allow an unlicensed person to drive.

the states cannot put up extraordinary barriers to normal activities like driving.

Cite?

Imagine if a State changed its law and said " everyone must havea Dl, no exceptions". That would be shot down in the Supreme Court as violating the Constitution.

Absolutely. You don't drive, they can't make you get one. And yes, Privileges and Immunities does require that one state honor another's licenses, at least so long as the driver remains a resident of the foreign state. If you believe that Privileges and Immunities prohibits a state from requiring some license, please cite authority to that effect.

[Farmer Giles]

the question is what is the difference between a "valid license" and a "drivers license".

If we are referring only to driver's licenses, none, unless you're talking about a forgery. You might as well say, "what's the difference between a one-dollar bill and a valid one-dollar bill?"

its relevant if foreign currency is admissible, like the nonresident exception contained in every code.

"VC" must mean "vehicle code". Please post the sections which say you don't need a license to drive.

there are none, as I think you well know. but the section that positively requires a DL makes a clear exception for nonresidents.

YES WE NEED A LICENSE TO LEGALLY DRIVE.

YES THIS IS A STATE POWER.

NO WE DO NOT NEED A DRIVERS LICENSE.

a license to drive INCLUDES a driver license, the nonresident privilege, and the privilege of "any person" whether or not an actual license has been issued.

(625 ILCS 5/1-138) (from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 1-138)

Sec. 1-138. License to drive.

Any driver's license or any other license or permit to operate a motor vehicle issued under the laws of this State including:


1. Any temporary license or instruction permit;

2. The privilege of any person to drive a motor vehicle whether or not such person holds a valid license or permit.

3. Any nonresident's driving privilege as defined herein.

(Source: P.A. 76-1586.)

[bmielke]

Try this...Found HERE

(625 ILCS 5/6‑101) (from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 6‑101)
Sec. 6‑101. Drivers must have licenses or permits.
(a) No person, except those expressly exempted by Section 6‑102, shall drive any motor vehicle upon a highway in this State unless such person has a valid license or permit, or a restricted driving permit, issued under the provisions of this Act.
(b) No person shall drive a motor vehicle unless he holds a valid license or permit, or a restricted driving permit issued under the provisions of Section 6‑205, 6‑206, or 6‑113 of this Act. Any person to whom a license is issued under the provisions of this Act must surrender to the Secretary of State all valid licenses or permits. No drivers license shall be issued to any person who holds a valid Foreign State license, identification card, or permit unless such person first surrenders to the Secretary of State any such valid Foreign State license, identification card, or permit.
(b‑5) Any person who commits a violation of subsection (a) or (b) of this Section is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor, if at the time of the violation the person's driver's license or permit was cancelled under clause (a)9 of Section 6‑201 of this Code.
(c) Any person licensed as a driver hereunder shall not be required by any city, village, incorporated town or other municipal corporation to obtain any other license to exercise the privilege thereby granted.
(d) In addition to other penalties imposed under this Section, any person in violation of this Section who is also in violation of Section 7‑601 of this Code relating to mandatory insurance requirements shall have his or her motor vehicle immediately impounded by the arresting law enforcement officer. The motor vehicle may be released to any licensed driver upon a showing of proof of insurance for the motor vehicle that was impounded and the notarized written consent for the release by the vehicle owner.
(e) In addition to other penalties imposed under this Section, the vehicle of any person in violation of this Section who is also in violation of Section 7‑601 of this Code relating to mandatory insurance requirements and who, in violating this Section, has caused death or personal injury to another person is subject to forfeiture under Sections 36‑1 and 36‑2 of the Criminal Code of 1961. For the purposes of this Section, a personal injury shall include any type A injury as indicated on the traffic accident report completed by a law enforcement officer that requires immediate professional attention in either a doctor's office or a medical facility. A type A injury shall include severely bleeding wounds, distorted extremities, and injuries that require the injured party to be carried from the scene.
(Source: P.A. 94‑993, eff. 1‑1‑07; 95‑578, eff. 6‑1‑08.)

You posted a definition, as to what it goes to I am unsure, this is the law requiring you to have a license.

[bmielke]

Before you go demanding the exceptions they are here.

(625 ILCS 5/6‑102) (from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 6‑102)
Sec. 6‑102. What persons are exempt. The following persons are exempt from the requirements of Section 6‑101 and are not required to have an Illinois drivers license or permit if one or more of the following qualifying exemptions are met and apply:
1. Any employee of the United States Government or
any member of the Armed Forces of the United States, while operating a motor vehicle owned by or leased to the United States Government and being operated on official business need not be licensed;

2. A nonresident who has in his immediate
possession a valid license issued to him in his home state or country may operate a motor vehicle for which he is licensed for the period during which he is in this State;

3. A nonresident and his spouse and children living
with him who is a student at a college or university in Illinois who have a valid license issued by their home State.

4. A person operating a road machine temporarily
upon a highway or operating a farm tractor between the home farm buildings and any adjacent or nearby farm land for the exclusive purpose of conducting farm operations need not be licensed as a driver.

5. A resident of this State who has been serving as
a member of the Armed Forces of the United States outside the Continental limits of the United States, for a period of 90 days following his return to the continental limits of the United States.

6. A nonresident on active duty in the Armed Forces
of the United States who has a valid license issued by his home state and such nonresident's spouse, and dependent children and living with parents, who have a valid license issued by their home state.

7. A nonresident who becomes a resident of this
State, may for a period of the first 90 days of residence in Illinois operate any motor vehicle which he was qualified or licensed to drive by his home state or country so long as he has in his possession, a valid and current license issued to him by his home state or country. Upon expiration of such 90 day period, such new resident must comply with the provisions of this Act and apply for an Illinois license or permit.

8. An engineer, conductor, brakeman, or any other
member of the crew of a locomotive or train being operated upon rails, including operation on a railroad crossing over a public street, road or highway. Such person is not required to display a driver's license to any law enforcement officer in connection with the operation of a locomotive or train within this State.

The provisions of this Section granting exemption to any nonresident shall be operative to the same extent that the laws of the State or country of such nonresident grant like exemption to residents of this State.
The Secretary of State may implement the exemption provisions of this Section by inclusion thereof in a reciprocity agreement, arrangement or declaration issued pursuant to this Act.
(Source: P.A. 96‑607, eff. 8‑24‑09.)

[Farmer Giles]

Try this...Found HERE

(625 ILCS 5/6‑101) (from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 6‑101)
Sec. 6‑101. Drivers must have licenses or permits.
(a) No person, except those expressly exempted by Section 6‑102, shall drive any motor vehicle upon a highway in this State unless such person has a valid license or permit, or a restricted driving permit, issued under the provisions of this Act.
(Source: P.A. 94‑993, eff. 1‑1‑07; 95‑578, eff. 6‑1‑08.)

You posted a definition, as to what it goes to I am unsure, this is the law requiring you to have a license.

except those expressly exempted by Section 6‑102

nonresidents

[bmielke]

Non Residents that hold a VALID License from another state or country.

Honestly I think I am going to put you on ignore too, it's been 24 hours for SFBFKADMVP and that has been a glorious 24 hours.

[Farmer Giles]

im slower than the loop again

and this law is just the point.

Before you go demanding the exceptions they are here.

(625 ILCS 5/6‑102) (from Ch. 95 1/2, par. 6‑102)
Sec. 6‑102. What persons are exempt. The following persons are exempt from the requirements of Section 6‑101 and are not required to have an Illinois drivers license or permit if one or more of the following qualifying exemptions are met and apply:


2. A nonresident who has in his immediate
possession a valid license issued to him in his home state or country may operate a motor vehicle for which he is licensed for the period during which he is in this State;



7. A nonresident who becomes a resident of this
State, may for a period of the first 90 days of residence in Illinois operate any motor vehicle which he was qualified or licensed to drive by his home state or country so long as he has in his possession, a valid and current license issued to him by his home state or country. Upon expiration of such 90 day period, such new resident must comply with the provisions of this Act and apply for an Illinois license or permit.



(Source: P.A. 96‑607, eff. 8‑24‑09.)

QUALIFIED OR LICENSED

[bmielke]

I am Licensed to drive a Car, if I had an endorcement I would be qualified to drive a motor cycle.

I am licensed to drive a Semi, If I have the endorcements I may be qualified to drive a hazardous materials rig, or a tandum rig.

Do you understand the words coming out of my keyboard?

[Farmer Giles]

Non Residents that hold a VALID License from another state or country.

exactly. what is a valid license? a qualification, as shown above. its not a "thing", or an administrative act from who knows where.

[bmielke]

Non Residents that hold a VALID License from another state or country.

exactly. what is a valid license? a qualification, as shown above. its not a "thing", or an administrative act from who knows where.

But it is, it is plastic card, mine says State of Tennessee, then my name and a number, it is horizontal. My last one said Commonwealth of Massachusetts, it was blue and white and vertical, because I renewed while I was home for Christmas Break 1 month and fifteen days before my 21 birthday.

[bmielke]

By the way what is the site to that SCOTUS case about home made ID's I am still waiting please.

[bmielke]

Are you even in Illinois?

There is no point in arguing Illinois Law if you don't live there we have attorneys from NY, CA, TX and other states here, they could give you answer for one of those states. I am not an attorney, nor do I claim to be one, however I can look up law just like any reasonable and sane person can.

Maybe you need research a little more and come back to us then.

[wserra]

a license to drive INCLUDES a driver license, the nonresident privilege, and the privilege of "any person" whether or not an actual license has been issued.

For some reason, Illinois defines "license to drive" (625 ILCS 5/1-138) separately from "driver's license" (625 ILCS 5/1‑116.1). The latter is defined as "Any license to operate a motor vehicle issued under the laws of this State". That is what you must possess to drive there, with certain inapplicable exceptions. I have no idea of the usage of "license to drive". I have no idea if Illinois law currently uses it at all. The law is built over hundreds of years, and is filled with curiosities and outright anachronisms.

A hint about statutory construction from someone who has been doing such for 33 years (and in the real world, not just on internet bulletin boards): It requires a certain amount of common sense. You engage in sophistry. Please cite a single court - the folks who interpret such statutes authoritatively - that sees it as you do.

[Farmer Giles]

its the same law in every state and country. all these Vehicle Codes were written on a model, and all incorporate provisions of the Intl Convention 1949 Geneva.

I am not an attorney, nor do I claim to be one, however I can look up law just like any reasonable and sane person can.

Maybe you need research a little more and come back to us then.

quite so. I dont know what anyone's problem with suijuris is, a lot of what goes on there is discussion about actual written applicable law. coonsidering the purely negative and defensive response on so many other sites, theres hardly room for casting stones here.

i will find the case about ID and get back later. but its off topic, and the IDP is acceptable as we all know and it is totally homemade. "foreign government issue" is a contradiction in terms. what is truly foreign shares none of the characteristics of govt issue ID.

the only purpose for checking a "foreign document" is to establish identification.

But it is, it is plastic card, mine says State of Tennessee, then my name and a number, it is horizontal. My last one said Commonwealth of Massachusetts, it was blue and white and vertical, because I renewed while I was home for Christmas Break 1 month and fifteen days before my 21 birthday.

thats because you are dealing with a compact or reciprocal state license. Holding one, it needs to be valid in order to legally drive. the nonresident exception makes no such distinction, as you can see. people come from anywhere under any circumstance, they drive quite legally, the police and courts freely admit this and they DO NOT HAVE A DRIVERS LICENSE. they cannot by definition. Outside of Mongolia, there is no such thing as a "Mongolian DL", it's meaningless. the problem comes from assuming there is nothing else to know in the world, that everything is the same. But "International Road Traffic" is a somewhat different animal and derives from different bases.


And you just made the same mistake as so many others: your little plastic card is NOT a "drivers license". If you cut it in half you still have the same privilege. maybe thats very telling: a drivers license is not a plastic card, even though everyone calls it a "DL". it is a symptom, not a cause. You have a certain privilege because you , the registered person, have this privilege. the legality doesnt somehow emanate from the card itself. if we are legal its for another reason.

dont you remember that Simpsons episode where Homer takes of running rom the police station, is about to turn the key, and little Lisa says "But Dad! you dont have your Drivers License!" and he says "I hope the car will still start!!!"

and it did.


Chapter V. DRIVERS OF MOTOR VEHICLES IN INTERNATIONAL TRAFFIC

ARTICLE 24

1. Each Contracting State shall allow any driver admitted to its territory who fulfills the conditions which are set out in annex 8 and who holds a valid driving permit issued to him,
after he has given proof of his competence, by the competent authority of another Contracting State or subdivision thereof, or by an association duly empowered by such authority, to drive on its roads without further examination motor vehicles of the category or categories defined in annexes 9 and 10 for which the permit has been issued.


2. A Contracting State may however require that any driver admitted to its territory shall carry an international driving permit conforming to the model contained in annex 10, especially in the case of a driver coming from a country where a domestic driving permit is not required or where the domestic permit issued to him does not conform to the model contained in annex 9.



3. The international driving permit shall, after the driver has given proof of his competence, be delivered by the competent authority of a Contracting State or subdivision thereof, or by a duly authorized association, and sealed or stamped by such authority or association. The holder shall be entitled to drive in all Contracting States without further examination motor vehicles coming within the categories for which the permit has been issued.

[Farmer Giles]

a license to drive INCLUDES a driver license, the nonresident privilege, and the privilege of "any person" whether or not an actual license has been issued.

For some reason, Illinois defines "license to drive" (625 ILCS 5/1-138) separately from "driver's license" (625 ILCS 5/1‑116.1). The latter is defined as "Any license to operate a motor vehicle issued under the laws of this State". That is what you must possess to drive there, with certain inapplicable exceptions. I have no idea of the usage of "license to drive". I have no idea if Illinois law currently uses it at all. The law is built over hundreds of years, and is filled with curiosities and outright anachronisms.

A hint about statutory construction from someone who has been doing such for 33 years (and in the real world, not just on internet bulletin boards): It requires a certain amount of common sense. You engage in sophistry. Please cite a single court - the folks who interpret such statutes authoritatively - that sees it as you do.

if youve been practicing for 33 years then youll know that all vehicle codes use substantially the same language. and I cite experience that we all share. Anyone ever legally driven a motor vehicle in a foreign country? Anyone ever driven an automobile where they were stopped by the local police and the only information that could have been checked was against the local database? Anyone ever realize that people from all over the world drive legally everyday in the USA, and everywhere else too? Do you think the police in California are worried about a database in Germany, which is actually an equivalent country in terms of civilization?

why should there be any court decisions on a noncontroversy? what I do know is lots of random injustice happens every day based on weird assumptions and magical thinking. a case in point was reported on CNN not long ago, maybe last year. In OK, a state trooper arrested a Mexican national who was in FULL possession of ALL his documents, everything super duper legal...why? because he "said" he had a job locally. So now, all the papers in the world dont count but someone "says" and its kindergarten again? "oh, but he said!" maybe I can "say" my way into a driver license then, as easily as Senhor mejicano said his way OUT of one..

needless to say, the police chief was forced to apologize after exposure on natl TV for the dumb hicks they are.